[Experimental Battle Pack] - New stat and combat system (09.03.2018)

[Agathor Krex]

I just feel weird getting half of my kills from running down the enemy. Played too much vanilla. Maybe i will use the super fast battles submod.

[ivanpera]

So IMO combat ought to have even less losses than now, with it being slower as a whole, but routing happening faster.
But KAM has told me time and again that this isn´t possible, so I´ll shut up about it^^

Instead of not possible I'd say "not fun": the ai is not programmed for that kind of gameplay, so you'll end up winning battle after battle with minimal losses, which would kill any challenge

[KAM 2150]

Hi Tiny, have you tried slower pack? Armour plays larger role there so maybe it uses better values

Agathor, no, units should not fight until they are down to 40-50%, only best troops can pull that off.

[ivanpera]

Hi Tiny, have you tried slower pack? Armour plays larger role there so maybe it uses better values

Just ran a couple of quick tests with naked spears and principes with both versions of the battle pack and i wish there was a middle ground. I like the pacing of the faster version, but with that one the spears (which with Alternative Economy cost less than a half of the pricipes) where definetly packing too much of a punch: they still lost due to routing, but both units where down to about 90 men.
With the slower versione the principes lost just about 30 men (granted, the charges where messed up).
Also, pretorian guards sent head on against the shieldwalled general of the Arverni (the spear unit, can't remeber the name now) with no envelopment voing on struggled a lot with the faster version (to the point of losing the fight) while with the slower version they traded blows equally

[KAM 2150]

Main issue would be that stuff like charges not killing more than 1-3 people, full javelin volley into the rear killing 1-3 people as anything more would mean auto rout (plus also not being realistic and very anticlimatic). Until we will get AI that is able to protect flanks, we won't be able to have that stuff.

Agathor, what you want is fantasy combat from movies, this is not the point of this mod.

Ivan, thanks for feedback, that is the point of those packs, to find a best balance Although I would not look at unit cost at the moment as unit reprice is done after stats are final.

[Gyan avspar]

Tried this experimental battle pack and I have got various feelings.
It certainly fixes formation attack, pikes combact feels more fluid and cavalry slightly more realistic, althought it maybe be just my taste.
But there are some things that I can't co up with. Armor plays so much role in battles that feels strange. I mean it should be a factor but it is like a double edged blade. And I will tell you exactly what i am talking about. Un-armored soldiers are levy soldiers, noone cares whether they live or die exept from fanatic naked dudes who they didnt wear anything to scare their foes and because it was consider a sign of cowardice. Medium armour , slows you down a bit, keeps you warmer and because of those 2 factors tire you little faster. But all the other senses of yours should be fine and that means you are able to fight with all the conford of a naked dude. Now the heavy armour. Almost all men think it should be superior and the more armored you are, the better soldier and fighting skills you have. But lets debate this carefully. A fully attached thorax panoply weights 8,5 kg on average. Add metal layers for your feet and bronze bracelets for your arms and thats about 2 kgs extra. Imagine someone who has to fight but also lift this weight. Doesnt this weight effect his meele capabilities. Certainly!! Now lets move to super heavy armor , the greek so called cataphract armor. I am not talking on cav. A typical weight of full mettal lumbrella armor weigts the astonishing 26 kgs as i have read!! Everything included. And speciall mention you dont just pull all that weight in your body. Your head, hands and legs too. Because of the big iron helmet your head feels heavy. You can not turn fully and in order to see to your very left/right you need to turn all your body. Hearsight also is terribly affected. Vibrations simply dont penetrate iron so you wont be hearing anything beyond 20 meters. Thats why commanders of such heavy inf had so many people to spread and repeat orders. Your arms weights double and that means you need the double energy to lift your shield and sword. Althought the power of sword slice is the same due to extra weight you tire so much faster that after 15 mins of intense fighting you 're having burning felling on your musles. That being said, I dont thing that armor is the major battle factor that decides who wins or dies. It can be this factor in ranged combact. And thats excactly the reasons cataphracts were invented in the east, where archery was the most spreaded tactic on warfare.

Not to mention that superheavy armor should not be possible on hot climates. Sweat doesnt evaporate and metal facing the sun can easilly be a poor's man pan

And thats again the reason arabs didnt even use thorax armor and they prefered the fibered thurios typical armor


P.S CA gives them camelphracts XDXDXD

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

JESUS!!!

[KAM 2150]

Which is exactly how it works in DeI. Elite, light units do have superior stats to plain heavy units but for anyone accustomed to fighting, mail shirt or linothorax almost do not hinder your movements while you are probably still superior in combat. Also this is not High Medieval, which was the point where heavy armours were rather cumbersone (just before plate armour was introduced) but most of armoured ancient infantry would be considered medium for the most part or heavy but there are maybe 1-2 units that would be really heavy. I have a bit of experience with various weapons and armours (as I own a bit of that stuff ) and considering fighting in formation (so your melee skills count for less as you don't have room for duel), you won't be hindered by your armour. Even 25kg of armour you mentioned is not much for trained person as present day soldeirs carry a bit more than that, whith worse weight distribution and still do those exhaustive drills. And even if you take your average soldier with his equipment and pit him in a 10km race vs few regular people, I guess you know who will still win the race

In other words, it is always better to put a money on a guy in armour Especially that most of light troops are untrained and in case of levy, probably not even that fit while most of heavier troops are trained and drilled. For the most part ancient armours are not that restrictive but keep in mind heavier units have on average lower stamina.

[Gyan avspar]

LoL kam, you are the battle master of this mod literally!! In this pack however I think that armors maybe crosses the lines. I did a battle Royal Peltasts against Thorax swords and the peltasts lost badly. They should be better in all terms exept armor but they lost, so I thought that this isn't as I expected. Correct me if I am wrong budy. I really admire your effords and I would love to be a parteon member as soon as i earn my own money. Corrently I am draining my famill's

[Tiny]

Thanks for the speedy reply Jam.

I am using slower battles. Neither unit got a charge bonus, but those naked spears smoke most of my units. Their lack of armor just doesn't matter to them in melee for my observations. Will continue to play around and see if that was a fluke on my part though!

[KAM 2150]

No problem guys, this is our mission to find perfect spot!

[Maetharin]

No problem guys, this is our mission to find perfect spot!

Until CA decides to mess with you again

[Sarkiss]

very keen to finally give this a go. a couple of quick questions, and i apologise if it was answered someplace already.

will this be compatible with the superb Alternative Economy (updated by Dardo21) submod?

will this work in mini-campaigns (Hannibal, Makedonian Wars, Caesar in Gaul)?


thanks in advance

[KAM 2150]

Yes it will Although I think this will revert unit prices to regular DeI values.

[ivanpera]

Yes it will Although I think this will revert unit prices to regular DeI values.

Not if you load it before. At least in custom battles the prices are the AE ones. For the campaign, I just briefly checked the buildings prices, but I believe units' ones should be ok too

[boblikesoup]

Not if you load it before. At least in custom battles the prices are the AE ones. For the campaign, I just briefly checked the buildings prices, but I believe units' ones should be ok too

I am failing to get proper unit prices from Official DEI Realism w/ Experimental Battle. Are you guys able to get this to work somehow or do we have to pick one or the other?

Is Alternative Economy update inbound?

[CadetNewb]

Any idea when the next batch of updates will be coming for this pack? I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm pretty eager to hear what you're cooking up.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Any idea when the next batch of updates will be coming for this pack? I can't speak for everyone else, but I'm pretty eager to hear what you're cooking up.

Mom said we'll have fried chicken with mashed potatoes and cherry pie for dessert.

[KAM 2150]

Hopefully this week but lately I have rather hard time at work so when I am back after 10-11 hours of fund accounting, I just want to chill ;P

[CadetNewb]

Mom said we'll have fried chicken with mashed potatoes and cherry pie for dessert.

I approve of this wholeheartedly. But only if the chicken was buttermilk soaked - I don't know how, but it tenderizes the chicken!

Hopefully this week but lately I have rather hard time at work so when I am back after 10-11 hours of fund accounting, I just want to chill ;P

Hang in there man! The chicken's on its way!

[Maetharin]

Until CA decides to mess with you again

How quick was that?
Damn Kam, I really hope this new patch doesn´t completely change the battle mechanics again.