[Experimental Battle Pack] - New stat and combat system (09.03.2018)

[geala]

Thanks. That makes sense of course. However the costs are indicators for quality in the plan of base DeI and stats should represent the costs. What I mean with this, I wouldn't like a cost decrease of the Bilit'ti Sayif relative to the Kulus Bomani, because both are equally bad. I'd like the other way round. As the former were seemingly seen as the better unit, their stats should be better in accordance.

I can of course not argue with physics, the naked skin of one unit cannot better withstand a sword cut than the skin of another. But moral for example is a wider field.

[bibs]

Bilit'ti Sayif

How do you even recruit those? What faction?

[geala]

It is Meroe, the Nubian kingdom of Kush in the south of today Sudan, north of Aksum/Ethiopia. In the game it is called "Medewi", which is as far as I know the name in the original Meroitic language. Under "African Empires" in the Grand Campaign. I think you need the DLC to play it actively.

[Basilius]

Kam:

My understanding is that, at a future date, you may incorporate some of these experimental tweaks to the core DEI mod. If so, will you be changing any unit stats?

I'm in the process of creating a spreadsheet of all unit stats in the game, and if you're going to be changing these stats, then I'm going to hold off. Please confirm one way or the other.

[Dresden]

Yes, we will be changing them. We hope to have a public beta that incorporates some of this (including stat changes) soon.

[Farrier]

So, which changes didn't make it into public beta? Also what about price balance?

[Dresden]

Unit costs/upkeep haven't been redone yet.

[LobstahJohnson]

Heavy Missile units are the same speed as other missile units. The Parthian super elite archer unit is speed 4, has excellent stamina and good/very good stats with 70 armor, 6/7 melee attack, melee defense, 40 weapon damage and some high armor pen. While it is crazy expensive (granted prices will be adjusted at some point) it can consistently outrun any heavy infantry unit.

Same goes for the elite Arche Bosphorus, Kolchian, Pontic and Getae archer units. Each of those, are 400 cheaper than the Parthian elite archer, but have good/very good armor(60-70) and melee stats and can RUN. I realize this is a minor issue, but I'm curious if this will be addressed since these elite archer/melee hybrid units are basically marathon runners compared to any dedicated infantry unit in the game. The Pergamnese Skirmish General unit is also speed 3 and capable of running and has the same attack and weapon stats as it's 1320 pt sword general, albeit with only 70 armor.

On the other hand I've found missiles to be underwhelming. Not bad necessarily but shooting at the unshielded side of an enemy doesn't really net any more kills than shooting at the shielded side and shooting at the front or either of those sides once the enemy has 40+ armor really makes it pointless. Shooting into the back does not kills, but not as many as I'd expect. So far I've seen no more than 40 kills from shooting into the enemies rear while they are engaged in fighting.

The Pergamenese elite skirmish unit got about 40 kills on the enemy if the armor was 40+, just broke 25 kills against an enemy with 90 armor. This is after expending all of the ammo.
Elite archer units like Parthian top 2 would net around 30-40 kills if firing into the rear of an enemy with 60+ armor, at the cost of all of it's ammo.

Slingers did surprisingly well on the other hand netting 30 kills within a few volleys against an armor 40 unit from the rear.

All in all I get that armor does provide considerable protection from missiles, but it feels like maybe it's a tad too effective. A whole unit's worth of ammo to kill almost 40 men in an enemy unit that is being shot in the rear seems too low. Prepatch I could use 3 missile units and knock down 1/3 of an armored enemy unit from the front with plenty of ammo left. Now using 3 missile units against a high armor enemy unit just wastes all that ammo for negligible kills.

Overall I like the new system for the most part, combat feels better, but missiles seem a tad too weak and the medium/heavy missile units are fast, which seems unbalanced when it comes to melee strong missile units.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Heavy Missile units are the same speed as other missile units. The Parthian super elite archer unit is speed 4, has excellent stamina and good/very good stats with 70 armor, 6/7 melee attack, melee defense, 40 weapon damage and some high armor pen. While it is crazy expensive (granted prices will be adjusted at some point) it can consistently outrun any heavy infantry unit.

Same goes for the elite Arche Bosphorus, Kolchian, Pontic and Getae archer units. Each of those, are 400 cheaper than the Parthian elite archer, but have good/very good armor(60-70) and melee stats and can RUN. I realize this is a minor issue, but I'm curious if this will be addressed since these elite archer/melee hybrid units are basically marathon runners compared to any dedicated infantry unit in the game. The Pergamnese Skirmish General unit is also speed 3 and capable of running and has the same attack and weapon stats as it's 1320 pt sword general, albeit with only 70 armor.

On the other hand I've found missiles to be underwhelming. Not bad necessarily but shooting at the unshielded side of an enemy doesn't really net any more kills than shooting at the shielded side and shooting at the front or either of those sides once the enemy has 40+ armor really makes it pointless. Shooting into the back does not kills, but not as many as I'd expect. So far I've seen no more than 40 kills from shooting into the enemies rear while they are engaged in fighting.

The Pergamenese elite skirmish unit got about 40 kills on the enemy if the armor was 40+, just broke 25 kills against an enemy with 90 armor. This is after expending all of the ammo.
Elite archer units like Parthian top 2 would net around 30-40 kills if firing into the rear of an enemy with 60+ armor, at the cost of all of it's ammo.

Slingers did surprisingly well on the other hand netting 30 kills within a few volleys against an armor 40 unit from the rear.

All in all I get that armor does provide considerable protection from missiles, but it feels like maybe it's a tad too effective. A whole unit's worth of ammo to kill almost 40 men in an enemy unit that is being shot in the rear seems too low. Prepatch I could use 3 missile units and knock down 1/3 of an armored enemy unit from the front with plenty of ammo left. Now using 3 missile units against a high armor enemy unit just wastes all that ammo for negligible kills.

Overall I like the new system for the most part, combat feels better, but missiles seem a tad too weak and the medium/heavy missile units are fast, which seems unbalanced when it comes to melee strong missile units.

Most of the missile units issues you're posting are fixable. Thanks for your report.

[torongill]

Just putting my two cents - considder me a total newb for DeI and Rome 2 in general, I just managed to get a rig that can play it. While I used to play lots of EB and EB2, I haven't been able to play Rome 2, so the battle mechanics and the properties of missiles are unknown to me. With that in mind:

Not all missiles are created the same. Unless it punctures the shield at a vital place, an arrow will not cause too much damage, unless it's a KIA/WIA calculation. Same with slingers - with the benefit of their bullets/rocks being able to offer more concussive damage. What they offer is range, attacking ability vs unarmored skirmishers and something else - range to force the opponent to move, range to force the opponent's skirmishers retreat and thus uncover their main line - and then to force the main line to hunker down behind their shields and endure - tiring them both mentally and physically.

Javelins on the other hand are much heavier (check reenactment shops, arrows are between 1.3 - 1.5 oz, or 37 - 42 grams. The basic poorman's javelin with a small head is 10z, 283 g. For heavier javelins it would be more. The soliferum/pilum/falarica is around 2 kg, or 50 times an arrow).

A javelin would much more readily disable a shield, thus lowering the overall defense of the recipient of javelins. It would also be a greater threat, even to an armored opponent. As for weapons like the pilum or the soliferum, it was designed to break through the defense provided by the shield and reach and kill the man behind, or at least partially disable the shield. Thus lowering the defense and having increased armor penetration compared to general javelins - which should have greater penetration than arrows.

BTW, archers were expensive and rare and scarce, at least in the west. Eastern armies having a much higher proportion of archers is okay, but it's my firm belief that if you play as Rome, Carthage, Keltoi or Epirus and have 20% of your force as archers, that is even less realistic than having stacks of praetorians.

Just check the proportions of the armies of Alexander, the Successors, Rome, Carthage. Hannibal for example, departed Carthago Nova with a force reported to be around 90 000 - of them two corps of Balearic slingers, each of 1000 men. In other words - 1 slinger and 44 other soldiers/warriors. 2.2% of the force.

[PietrolEremita]

*silent applause*

[KAM 2150]

Thread closed as for now all updates will be included in the beta patch.

As for ranged vs shield, game has only flat missile block chance so if you set it to 70% for shield A, no matter if arrow, stone, pilum hits it, 70% of of them will bounce off.