Actually challenging Punic War: Thank you

[jegui]

It is amazing how this new patch and mod make this game challenging!
Playing on H/N + tension, culture, AAA generals submods as Rome I can see similar behaviour above from the AI
I'm on turn 200 and I'm having a hard time with Iberian factions and Carthage... I decided to go north and west for my expansion and I have just realised how hard that is and keep wondering if I made the right decision...

Carthage dominates the seas with endless and powerful navy stacks. I had to sit two legions in Sicily to keep their navies and armies from invading. They attacked and invaded the island several times initially when I was expanding west with my legions. They only stopped when I sat two legions in patrol mode near the island eastern cities. Now they have shifted their attention to Iberia because my legions are there fighting the Iberians. They are actually working with those factions to fight me out... It's a bloody war of attrition which keep depleting my 6 spearhead legions...

The Iberian factions have pretty much allied and keep throwing their stacks to my advance with support from Carthage... and they are not few... 2-3 at the time... I beat 2, the other factions send in another 2 and Carthage follows from the south. I have manage to subjugate a couple of cities in southern France to keep the other northern barbarians away from the loot... I'm pretty much stuck! really hard

I thought I could take advantage of Carthage diverting her armies/navies west and take Carthage itself but when I sent a Spy discovered 3-4 stacks of northern African factions sitting and wafting in their borders... they have already declare war on me and don't make peace at any means... Pretty much all Iberian and northern African factions are at war with Rome and act together when attacked! At least I managed to secure peace and trade deals with most Greek, Eastern and Northern factions... for now

Pretty much stuck in this attrition war and really don't have many choices for now... I can only foot 1 full stacked navy and 5-6 fighting legions which keep depleting year after year...

Screenshots:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.n...56370428D2D65/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.n...A4EAE28E160DD/

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.n...5187780D64C39/

[FlashHeart07]

They only stopped when I sat two legions in patrol mode

You do Know that patrol stance allows the AI to ambush your army directly if they choose to attack.

On another note. How is carthage doing in your campaigns. Do they manage or are they getting destroyed by the AI?

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[♔Greek Strategos♔]

@jegui
Good to know. Thanks for your inputs. I would also like to know about Carthage's performance.

[jegui]

You do Know that patrol stance allows the AI to ambush your army directly if they choose to attack.


Sendt fra min SM-G930F med Tapatalk

Thanks for the tip! I do know it and hence I only select this stance when my forces have enough distance from the enemy armies. I normally check all on each turn and also make sure they have support from as many city garrisons as possible. This is the only way I can get money at the end of the turn and still manage 5-6 attacking legions!

@jegui

On another note. How is carthage doing in your campaigns. Do they manage or are they getting destroyed by the AI?

Good to know. Thanks for your inputs. I would also like to know about Carthage's performance.

For Carthage situation, they have pretty much held all their provinces in Northern Africa and southern Iberia. They have not expanded nor been wiped out so far... I can see lots of Carthage stacks marching across in Africa and onto Iberia but the African factions are not conquering them from Carthage. What I do notice is the neighbouring African factions massing stacks in the borders and as soon as I invade Carthage they will just move those stacks against me. The Iberian factions are not attacking Carthage, instead they are all colluding with Carthage to attack me (Rome).

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Thanks for the tip! I do know it and hence I only select this stance when my forces have enough distance from the enemy armies. I normally check all on each turn and also make sure they have support from as many city garrisons as possible.





For Carthage situation, they have pretty much held all their provinces in Northern Africa and southern Iberia. They have not expanded nor been wiped out so far... I can see lots of Carthage stacks marching across in Africa and onto Iberia but the African factions are not conquering them from Carthage. What I do notice is the neighbouring African factions massing stacks in the borders and as soon as I invade Carthage they will just move those stack against me. The Iberian factions are not attacking Carthage, instead they are all colliding with Carthage to attack me (Rome).

Seems like an interesting situation. Best of luck with them.

[myarta]

Hey, not to be that guy but in the service of being helpful, you are probably looking for the word colluding rather than colliding.

[boblikesoup]

You do Know that patrol stance allows the AI to ambush your army directly if they choose to attack.

On another note. How is carthage doing in your campaigns. Do they manage or are they getting destroyed by the AI?

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Carthage was getting owned by AI in my campaign. I played like 20 turns of Ptolemy with a trade agreement with Carthage. Syracuse had conquered the island and taken part of North Africa. A neutral African faction also took a couple of Carthage's regions.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Hey, not to be that guy but in the service of being helpful, you are probably looking for the word colluding rather than colliding.

If your post isn't a direct answer to the post above you, then always quote the person you're referring to.

[jegui]

Hey, not to be that guy but in the service of being helpful, you are probably looking for the word colluding rather than colliding.

That is correct, thanks!!! obviously the forum spell checker selected the latter rather than the former

[ostendadler]

Its fascinating to see that you guys did not get dragged on in other wars . (yet I am after all 70 turns further than you)

While I did land in North Africa and take carthage they remain strong and have numerous allies to rely on. You all seem to have had no troubles with other nations aside from Carthage while I got declared war on by the Odrysean kingdom and Egypt at a later stage. While I did vanquish the Thracians I am playing defense against Egypt for now because they are from from and I cannot risk such a long crossing.

I would advise you to never cross the sea without being escorted by a fleet. The attrition is prohibitive and you will get destroyed in case you get intercepted.

I reckon the Rome campaign could go very differently if you end having the Illyrians or the Gauls have a go at you early. In this case I don't think you can fight both North and South of Italy.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

I would advise you to never cross the sea without being escorted by a fleet. The attrition is prohibitive and you will get destroyed in case you get intercepted.

Yep. Cruising isn't safe anymore.

[jegui]

Its fascinating to see that you guys did not get dragged on in other wars . (yet I am after all 70 turns further than you)

pretty much all factions in North Africa including Egypt have declared war in my campaign. I just realised how suicidal it'd be to cross the med and invade Africa... at least 4-5 stacks of Carthage neighbours would launch an attack immediately not mentioning Egypt if I dare venture east... I have just been surprised with an invasion force in Sicily from Masaesyli faction

[ostendadler]

Well I would advise using your treasury as a weapon to drag the war to them as well. I got the Seleukids to join me in the war against Egypt. That stopped the flow of landing armies in Greece (although they still have a foot hold in Crete). I'd advise you to really try and get some friends on your side. It tends to keep the AI from all attacking you because you've got friends. Diplomacy isn't so much a pleasant affair here. You've got to bribe and pay every turn to keep them happy. It gets tricky after a while because some empires decline or rise to fame (Massalia was at some point the biggest land owner in Iberia ... now they just control some parts of Gaul). I have completely changed my play style with the new update. Gone are the blitzkrieg days where i'd force march across a region to shock and awe all the settlement into submissions. The AI will crush you that way!

The strategy now is to gain local advantages and exploit them as far as you can and then stop and consolidate. Some times this might take dozens of turns. (I have been trying to conquer Macedonia since Turn one and I'm pretty sure it took me well over a 100 turns to rule it after getting pushed out twice by the Thracians and once by Egyptians). I'm also not afraid to withdraw from a battle or from a region if I feel like I don't stand a chance. I use terrain and fortify a lot more too. Its all about getting the AI to commit on your terms. I can never hope to line up that many armies in one area so I try and chip his away.

Same goes for naval conflict. I used to completely ignore that aspect in the game but now not only do I have to have a navy I used for blockades and a landing on Carthage (just like in that dreaded gameplay footage first released by CA all those years back). Neglecting naval warfare will take a huge tall via Piracy and raiding fleets. Not to mention the fact that the AI will raid your ports if you stretch yourself too thin.

Now that I am the one on the offensive in Carthage's home turf I will let them come and try and bleed them out before I start chipping away their client states. Once Carthage is left alone standing that will just be a sweep and clean operation. The interesting part will be Egypt. Carthage and Egypt share a common border which would put me at their mercy would I conquer all of Carthage's provinces. Should I stretch myself military that far when Cisalpania remains in the hands of the Gauls ? What about Greece ? Athens and Sparta will no doubt start eyeing at Rhodes for territory. What then ? Rhodes is the power player in this region and It would require a lengthy conflict to hope and defeat them.

How about Illyria and the Celts. Some have already declared war on me and this could drag into the war every faction on the coast. I am trying as much as possible to contain and decide where to go but the game might at any turn decide that my attention will be on X part of the world. Pretty neat if you ask me.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Be aware that some factions are much more aggressive despite the difficulty setting or your diplomatic actions.

[ostendadler]

Allright chaps I am back after a few weeks off from DEI. I've clocked in another 70 turns during the weekend. 2 things are clear to me now with this version:

1. You and your empire are not unbeatable
2. You can get stuck in an unwinnable war

I have now fought well over 15 battles around my north African holdings around Carthage and Thapsos but I am far from able from gaining any more territory. When ever I manage to gain a local advantage Carthage and its client states push from another direction and I have to rotate my armies to face them.

I actually lost several battles and got 3 legions annihilated in 3 different battles. War elephants are now an absolute destroyer of lines and I had to create new tactics to hold the line. Carthage took by Thapsos and annihilated one of my fleets. They even got to Siege carthage for a short period of time while I was rushing back from home some newly created legions. That was stressful as hell. I actually thought I'd get kicked out of north Africa and lose 100+ turns of fighting. That alone was pretty cool!

Thankfully I managed to push Carthage back and they've been since just a nuisance at sea (they captured my Narbo settlement ). On land however the two clients states of Carthage have been a thorn in my side. I had a 2vs2 battle last night that was nothing short of Zama. ( I took some pretty bad-ass screenshots) 6 units of elephants charging my lines head on and utterly mushing down my skirmishers was an awesome experience. I ended up winning the battle thanks to the 3 units of Syracuse crossbows who brought a lot of pain to their lines. A mass route later and the filed was mine. I thought I was gonna lose until the very last minute. But here I am again holding Carthage and Thapsos with my two severely depleted legions and already another 2 stacks from the second client state already in sight.

My only good move against Carthage has been to disrupt their navy (hunting and killing 3 stacks) and beach landing at IOL liberating it giving me one less enemy to worry about.

In Greece the war with the Illyrian tribe bordering Macedonia has been a string of hit and run battles with no decisive battle until I manage to corner 2 of his stacks in the forest and route them by the Danube. After that I just slowly chipped away their capital and the other major settlement by the Adriatic. After that they sued for peace and offered clienthood. Next targets are Iader and Patavium to finally link my holdings into one land mass.

i am now in 234 BC and hold Italy, Latium, Macedonia, Illyria (minus Iader), Sycilia & Corsica/Sardinia. This is probably the hardest but most interesting campaign I had in a total war. I definitely haven't got the steam roll vibe at all and am terrified of my Gaul neighbors to the north which are very tempted to settle south in Italy.. I have a half stack up there but will not perform miracles.

I also have Ptolemaic Egypt as a sworn enemy but thankfully my alliance with the Seleukids has proven an effective tool in keeping them busy on their side of the Mediterranean. With the conquest of the Libyan province in the calendar this would put me in direct contact with them and drag me into another power struggle. The question is should I drive further East when I am facing sizable threats next to my Heartland. That's just awesome to face such problematic. One wrong step and things could go south very quickly.

[Jake Armitage]

Really cool campaign!
Maybe it would be better to focus on one front per time, and having some legions along "peace" borders just for eventual retaliation.
But, effectively, this will dimnish fun.

[ostendadler]

While in theory this is what RII is all about the new DEI version puts that plan to rest. Out of all the armies I field all except one are at full strenght involved in active border clashes or conquest.

Here is the breakdown:

2 Legions in Africa to "pacify" Carthage and its client states (and failing to gane any advantage for a good 50 turns now)
1 Legion in Sardinia to repel the repeated sea/land assault from Carthage
1 Legion in Thracia stabilizing the newly aquired land north of Macedonia
1 Legion in Illyria stabilizing the newly aquired region
1 Legion at half strength at the border with Patavium keeping the Gauls in check in case they desire to declare war.
1 empty Legion in Rome as Governor
1 Fleet in Carthage to defend my holdings in North Africa and engage Carthage to the West
1 Fleet in Thapsos to defend my holdings in North Africa and engage Carthage to the East
1 Fleet in Macedonia to defend and destroy the Ptolemaic fleets that sail in my sea.

My treasury cannot support any more than that unless I fied garbage which will be of no use this late in the game.

When I lost 1 or 2 legions in battles I very much had the cold sweat Augustus had after the Teutoberg defeat. Every defeat is a kick that sees your hard earned efforts turned away.

Allow me to lay down a few examples:

2 My two most experienced fully equipped legions meeting in the field 2 armies from Numdia with an army of elephants.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Once the AI aligned its armies the show was of biblical proportions. Two fighting styles in the flat planes of North Africa. Zama anyone ?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

With 4 units of war elephants I was hoping to pepper them all across the line to avoid a possible breakthrough. Thank god for them and (not for me) War elephants are armoured and do not fall down at the sight of a javeling. They crushed me ! Proof is in the pudding I didn't take any other screenshot of this battle because I was so involved trying to save my line and jewel of my military might.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yet another clash with the Numidian client states that overwhelmed a single stack with 2 armies. ( this time however the elephants didn't make it) I lost but managed to retreat and avoid anihilation as above.

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Its not all doom and gloom. My navy had several major clashes with Carthage who still tries and chip some of my weaker provinces away. They went and entertain neptune down under.

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This is just one proof of the alarming number of battles I've had to fight in North Africa (there's more of those next to Thapsos). Definitely one of the hardest beach head i've had since Holding Jerusalem in Medieval 2 during a Holy war. I have to fight off rebellions on a constant basis while trying to prevent the client state armies from ganging up on me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This is the latest Zama Style battle where to my centurion's awe Numidia lined up once again War elephants to retake Thapsos from me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This time however I narrowed my defensive line and put my skirmishers in depth providing rolling fire onto the advancing Numidian armies.

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And this is how I was left standing after this great battle. Thank god for Syracuse crossbowmen if not i'd have to land back in North Africa and re-start from scratch.

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[AngryPolack]

Awesome report Ostendadler.

[ostendadler]

I just chipped in another few turns tonight and I am pleased to report that the deadlock in Africa is finally over. After investing mad amounts of money into my client states they finally declared war on Carthage dividing their attention. While they soaked the heat from the clients states I managed to eventually defeat the counter offensive from Carthage.

Counter offensive that in the beginning nearly kicked me out again from North Africa. I was clever enough to retreat from Thepsos (and lose it AGAIN) before catching the 2 Carthaginian Stacks while they set up camp. A swift Naval raid later on their other African town East chipped another settlement away Leaving Carthage cornered and weakend after nearly 30 YEARS at war with me. If every major power is this hard to destroy this promises to be a very exciting campaign.

I mentioned in my previous post that Qart Hadasht and Thapsos have seen so much fighting they may well be renamed Stalingrad and Verdun. The crossed swords are only proof of the major battles but many unmarked skirmished have soaked the land red.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This was my usual routine until recently. Defeating the different stacks of Client States of Carthage then retreating when unable to stop the waves of attack on my little piece of North Africa. In this shot I had just barely defeated the two Stacks while another two raced back at me to defeat my bloodied armies.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Losing Thepsos ... AGAIN !

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Retaking Thepsos again !

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And here it is my current little bit of a Roman Republic. I've reshuffled my armies around after submitting most Illyria. I was hoping to destroy Patavium but sadly they are allied with one of my client states which mean I will have to spend copious amount of money trying to charm my client state to break its alliance.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

At this point you might all say that its all fine and that i've just stepped into the comfort play however let me describe to you the current world situation.

To my East Ptolemaic Egypt is the next state once I vanquish the last remaing Eastern Carthaginian province. They are still more powerful than me and will definitely not sue for peace ( I tried many times). This means that no matter what I will have to allocate Armies to keep my borders safe. At best I can hope to build client states out of Egypts own territory but this might be a big challenge.

To my West Carthage is still alive and its client states are still ligning up stack after stack threatening to take down all what i have so patiently built in the past 120 turns (!!!). I can perhaps allocate a third army for a while if my treasury and PO can hold up but I will not play that card until hard pressed.

In Spain the Averni's (Who absolutely hate me for supporting several of their enemies- who fought carthage out of spain). They threaten a large number of my allies and I will no doubt be dragged into fighting as the Punic war ramps down.

In Greece Rhodes has been a fairly useful ally against the different Ptolemaic invasions, the defeat of the Odryisan kingdom and the Illyrian tribes. However most of those conflicts are fading from their minds and they are not particularly happy about my alliance with some of their most angry neighbors ( the scordisci now my client state - at war with them) and the Seleukids with whom they have absolutely despicable relations with.

Up North Cisalpine Gaul/ Alps/ Gaul are firmly in the hands of my long term ally and trade partner Massallia (Devin is probably running the show there). They've pissed off a lot of people including the Avernis and are at war with countless factions further North. Also minor factions holding that part of Italy are all allied with each other promising a massive conflict if not delt piece by piece.

As much as I want to calm things down and focus just on closing the show with Carthage I am pretty sure the CAI will drag me into a war that will no doubt turn my plan on its head.

I'd love to tie things up in Cisalpania and get involved in Spain to follow a somewhat historical pattern.


Also last but not least - Most of my generals are now old shmucks with massive amounts of political power which would create immense vaccum when they'll pass away threatening me with a risk of civil war. While i've done my best to keep every happy something tells me that power vaccuums are not to be trifled with.

That's it for tonight chaps.

[Obscure_Polygon]

This is exactly what prompted me to try DeI in the first place. Being a brand new Rome 2 player, I was hugely disappointed by how underwhelming Carthage was. My first shot at the vanilla campaign saw them blitzed and completely conquered by Iberians and the Masaesyli inside two turns. Trying different mods over a couple restarts still never amounted to anything legitimately challenging.

Finally DeI was the breakthrough. Carthage really is the dominant western sea power. Starting out, their navy and control of the sea is absolutely untouchable, and they can put so much more money and power wherever they want than the player can as Rome. Going to war with them with only Italy and Sicily to work with (Syracuse did manage to expel them) had me perpetually scraping the bottom of the treasury every single turn, struggling just to maintain a large enough force in Sicily to prevent them from simply overrunning it. And that was practically all I could do, as I couldn't even dream of challenging them at sea for the many years I spent desperately researching and cobbling together an outclassed navy.

It became a long, hugely expensive stalemate that--very satisfyingly--turned into a sort of proxy war in Iberia and West Africa, as I worked to build relations and trade with the tribes and unite them against Carthage's presence there. Somewhere along the way, Carthage and Egypt fell out, giving them an occasional real naval threat to deal with, creeping up the eastern shores. It was only through this indirect diplomatic maneuvering that I was able to spread Carthage out, see its forces slowly isolated and picked off on multiple fronts, and finally start landing some risky blows in Corsica and Sardinia.

Even then, taking and holding anything in Africa was prohibitively dangerous, and I really needed to free up resources to deal with Massilia, which had exploded through the Alps. Only disappointment was that reaching any kind of peace agreement with Carthage has been impossible, despite their diplomatic situation and me being able at least threaten the cities. But I get the balancing act of aggression with the CAI, so I've accepted a sort of cold war lull instead.

DeI made what I had originally hoped for coming into Rome 2 a reality. Top notch .