Carthage Starting Moves

[Lord Dakier]

Hi all,

So I was going to start a Carthage campaign later today and wondered what some starting moves could be. To keep it interesting I was going to avoid going to war for as long as possible and allow the AI to build up a little.

Given the number of provinces I have there's no shortage of building paths I can take, so I was thinking of making Africa my economy super state while making my main recruitment centre in Iberia before. Would it be ideal to have several mercenary barracks spaced around the map to draw the special units from?

[H-Khan]

Well what I remember I did long ago, was to build recruiting centers to Libya and Hispania ( also acting as border garrisons against Iberians and Ptolemies ). Third later to Syracuse ( you can pull even Cretans archers there as Romans ). Then secure Ebora for access to both wep&shield upgrades. I concentrated on Iberia early on mostly, also allowing Romans to build up.. lacked the merc barracks back then tho. Hell it might have even been in Vanilla version

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Moved to DeI Strategy Guides and Gameplay Discussions.
Feel free to continue.

[Samos41]

Spend all your money on mercs and troops on sicily and attack syracuse and liberate them. Rome won't attack them probably and you can focus on spain and africa without having to worry about rome for a while.

[Nordling]

I always play as the party giving you diplomacy bonus and more movement with higher recruitment cost (Hannonid?). They make everything tremendously easier as they get best traits as compared to other 2. Diplomacy bonus makes trading and NAP much easier to shove down AI throat. Higher movement is amazing in later parts of campaigns. And higher recruitment does not hurt that much - you should be swimming in cash with Carthage anyway. Im playing on hard and with some diplo acrobatics no iberian faction has declared war on me on its own.

Early game:
-build Baal temples in all provinces you got a settlement in except Africa and Corsica (build Melqart temples and go for maritime commerce - trade ports etc.)
-on the diplo side, trade with everybody around. They also are happy to see your merchants ruin their markets with cheap products from your manufacturing empire so its cool. You might want to cheese and demand payments for trade agreements but doing so you take advantage of how the diplo works and it sucks IMO. If you prefer a more realistic approach then I suggest you dont do that. Make syracuse sign trade and NAP asap, you can even throw some cash in to sweeten the pot. Having said the thing about cheesing with diplo I always take defensive alliance with Garamantians (the africans south of Carthago) in exhchange for trade. Just so they dont strike me when it hurts i.e. Africa. Also, if you get war declaration with Egypt (altho I never did) they might help you tremendously. As well as your other client states in Africa (you would just set war coordination target in Egypt and watch their stacks advance)
-trade ports all over the place, but build shipyards in both Siciliy provinces as well as in the African settlement closest to Egypt for lowering piracy. Also, you might want to go for a few fishing buildings in some other places.
-after handling PO issues prioritise Africa development: i) put general as city administrator in Carthage and spam tax traits for him ii) build amphorae maker for higher agriculture & commerce output iii) dont mind the PO there too much, your general + governor will keep it in check.
-I always go for recruitment center solely in Hispania as Egypt & Syracusehas never threatened me that hard. Despite that I always go for barracks in Sicily just to be on the safe side. In Hispania province I build both barracks and military akademia (I never go for siege cuz I dont like using them very much).
-you got $$$$load of provinces so you dont need to expand in the early game. Focus on multiplying your income by reinvesting all you make each turn. It increases exponentially when you do it like that and you soon are swimming in cash with Africa making half of all your income. Mauretania is a good province as well for prioritising commerce income.
-when you are done with playing simcity you make 1-2 strong armies (I advise picking up carthaginian archers in your capital since they are recruitable only there for most of the early-mid game. They got no amazing ranged skills but they are decently armored and can double as flanking forces. Very versatile (mind thay they use 1st class pop so you need to be careful with army composition). I advise to pick up merc elephants in Mauretania, rly op and come with fairly cheap upkeep. Also, get a fleet with preferance for support ships (I go for archers but I guess slingers might do the trick as well). I use support ships with archers because they have 30 ammo. Amazing thing, they rack up 200-300 kills while being only 100 in size (I always play ultra unit size).
-scout Gaetuli (the ones in Mauretania) and use according force. You may need to use 1 full stack, 1 half stack and 1 fleet to take it. Sometimes just 1 stack + fleet is all you need just mind that African tribes spam slingers/javelinmen and spearmen so you need to make appropriate army composition to counter that.
-after securing Mauretania I focus on conquering Iberia. They mostly fight internally so if you pick your fights well you should have easy targets to expand. I always make lusitani my client state (they agree pretty easily to that after beating their stacks and sacking one of their cities).
-you might see arverni expansion in Iberia. If you do it changes your campaign dramatically because you either drive them out of Iberia and get into conflict with pretty much all of Gaul or you let them threaten your Iberian domain. Either way it sucks hard. If there are no arverni in Iberia then you just secure it and you are free to do what you want to. I always pick NAPs and trade with whoever is on the other side of Pyrenees and just forget about that front completely, leaving a half stack in Iberia just in case
-Rome might declare war on you somewhere in between. Just forget about them as you didnt take syracuse so there is no land connection between you. You would need to maintain a decently sized fleet on the east to patrol the waters in case romans try something nasty.
-after securing Iberia i try to make allies with Massalia if they are strong or any other powerhouse in Gaul.
-then proceed to take syracuse and wage war with Rome. I recommend switching your recruitment center to sicily after securing Iberia.
-beating Rome makes campaign significantly easier and opens up opprotunities to take Illyria and Hellas. After that your only rival in Medditerranean should be Egypt.

I play on H/H difficulty and it generally works every time.
Also, I strongly suggest to pick up alternative economocy submod from KAM. Playing with normal economy I notice that I can snowball much easier and much earlier so it is less enjoyable for me. KAM's submod makes it more challenging and strategic as you have much more limited resources to keep peace on every front of your overstretched domain and you must rely on some fine diplo gimmicks to not be caught with your pants down on some distant front that you completely neglected. This strat also works with KAm's submod so I guess its pretty ok

Also, do give elephants a chance. They completely trample any cav on enemy side. Javcav compliments elephants well as you have light swift cav and shock tanks. Carthaginian shock cav is strong as well and they sit somehwere between these two. Anyways, I bring max 2 ele units. Sometimes I can get 900 kills in one battle with good ele rear charge, losing 1 or maybe 2 beasts in process. Really useful against legionnairies as they just dont die to conventional weaponry.


Cheers

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

@Nordling
Useful tips

[Fluke]

@Nordling
Useful tips

Yeah, you can tell Nordling has done this before!

[Fluke]

Double due to slow-ass site..........

[SteelCurtain]

That did not go well. Attacked immediately by Guramenti (desert faction) then by Syracuse, Landowners left me and declared war (Mauretania lost), Allia ablaze, massive food shortages, Rome already very strong. All over 269BC.

How do I reduce my parties influence? it just goes up and up.

I'll shall try Carthage again, on to turn 2. Might try taking out Syracuse right away, and starting the Punic war, it has to be better than this, make peace with Epirus first. Hopefully I can rely on client states to take care of southern desert flank,

[SteelCurtain]

This is hopeless, you set the war target your allies just stand there and won't advance, then retreat for no reason, you advance and they don't support...How can a 1 OPM defeat a superpower with 2 client states? It's nonsense - it doesn't matter what units I recruit the battle 'preview' gives me no chance so I have to retreat - my forces move amnwhere at a snails pace they seem to fly about the map unhindered. Allies begin a suege then just wander off, I've got on ally who advances two provinces and then runs off home and then does the same thing over and over.

[SteelCurtain]

There we go, two ally armies in support and they just stand there as the besieging army collects all its forces together and routs me. I'm done with this complete nonsense of a game. I salute the makers of the mod, none of the shortcomings of this POS Total War title will be their doing I am sure and I know they'll have done there absolute best to make a good game of Rome 2. I'll derfinitely remain part of the community though. I'm going to ressurect MTW 2 with Stainless Steel mod - now there was a game!

[kpagcha]

Yeah in my experience allies and client states are utterly useless, their armies just won't move. The problem is the game, not the mod.

[SteelCurtain]

Yeah in my experience allies and client states are utterly useless, their armies just won't move. The problem is the game, not the mod.

The one time they did move was to steal Cyrenkia (sp?) the province next to the Ptolies, after I'd done all the fighting and they stood around, one of my clients stepped in and besieged it. What a shame the original game was so broken and useless. I was really enjoying the mod until it came to the warfare, I've only wasted about a weeks gameplay so no harm done.

Sadly my plan to go back to MTW 2 with SS mod has failed as my kingdoms disk won't install the 'Crusades' part for some reason. So i'm going to try Empire with Darth.

[Nordling]

Yeah in my experience allies and client states are utterly useless, their armies just won't move. The problem is the game, not the mod.

I don't rely on clients to fight my battles as they are not intended to do so. They are a buffer on my borders. Im playing greek states and halted eastern expansion on syria and armenia. Vassalised all minor kingdoms to the east of me and if parthia or nomads want to make a move (i have wars with them), they will have to move through my clients first, giving me time for reaction. Got 3 armies on eastern frontier and cant efficiently guard all my holdings. Thats what clients states are for (IMO ofc).

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

It's true that one should rely mostly on himself when it comes to fighting battles and I actually can't understand why you, SteelCurtian, struggle so much while playing Carthage. Do you find their roster underpowered in comparison to your enemies?

The client states are indeed always a nice buffer, though it happened to me on a few occasions that they would also support me in battle once I set the war target for them. I think that one must simply be a bit more patient as CAI usually needs some time to figure out what to do.

[kpagcha]

It's true that one should rely mostly on himself when it comes to fighting battles and I actually can't understand why you, SteelCurtian, struggle so much while playing Carthage. Do you find their roster underpowered in comparison to your enemies?

The client states are indeed always a nice buffer, though it happened to me on a few occasions that they would also support me in battle once I set the war target for them. I think that one must simply be a bit more patient as CAI usually needs some time to figure out what to do.

Nah it's just broken. Once I had two Veneti stacks sitting in their home region for no reason (they had no enemies) for 60+ turns, war objective set and everything.

[Nordling]

Nah it's just broken. Once I had two Veneti stacks sitting in their home region for no reason (they had no enemies) for 60+ turns, war objective set and everything.

Yeah, just roll with it. You can call it broken, for me its perfect. I dont have to deal with friendly stacks running all over the place, taking regions in provinces I want to consolidate. But wuen somebody attacks my clients (and my borders as well) they have to deal with those 2 stacks first. I like it the way it is. Minor client factions shouldnt expand aggresively for me, they should sit around and dont bother me

[amagana91]

Since clients are inconsistent, what about a submod where we could levy units from their land at the clients expense (or at least heavily subsidized by them), perhaps we still pay for their upkeep or something. Obviously there should be a cap, maybe based on the strength of the client. The idea would be that as your client, you are able to call upon them to assist in your wars and historically they would have to follow orders of their Protector. Since we cannot rely on the AI to act appropriately, we just take the AI out of the equation. Maybe they have morale debuffs as they are not fighting for their own cause. Perhaps there is a timer until they are auto disbanded for serving a term or are consistently debuffed and their loyalty rating drops as they grow to resent a long campaign for a protector kingdom. This may even have diplomatic ramifications, your client state grows to resent you if you use their armies too long. Once disbanded that client is exempt from military service for some time and cannot be called upon again for a certain amount of turns. What do people think of this, any ideas to improve the concept?

[popovic]

Ok, I thought I already posted here, seems like I didn`t, so here goes:

1) Choose your fronts. There is no way you can defend everything. I would focus on keeping all of Africe, and protecting it as much as possible.

2) Build up merc barracks, and USE MERCS! (that you get from those barracks, the standard ones are ok, but these are better).

3) Research the tech to make mercs cheaper. Get that trait on your generals that make mercs cheaper. Eventually, get the army trait that makes mercs cheaper.
If you do this right, you will pretty soon be fielding units that are on par with reformed Principes for less than 100 denarii upkeep per unit.

4) You are close to the edge of the map. Use that to your advantage. ALWAYS try to close down/protect your flanks/back. For instance, I would try to take out Garama asap, and then perhaps those 2 settlements in east Lybia between you and the Ptolomeis. Though it might be better to just leave half a stack there and just keep sacking them every other turn (so that they serve as a buffer zone between you and Egypt).

If you have some more specific questions, ask away.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Since clients are inconsistent, what about a submod where we could levy units from their land at the clients expense (or at least heavily subsidized by them), perhaps we still pay for their upkeep or something. Obviously there should be a cap, maybe based on the strength of the client. The idea would be that as your client, you are able to call upon them to assist in your wars and historically they would have to follow orders of their Protector. Since we cannot rely on the AI to act appropriately, we just take the AI out of the equation. Maybe they have morale debuffs as they are not fighting for their own cause. Perhaps there is a timer until they are auto disbanded for serving a term or are consistently debuffed and their loyalty rating drops as they grow to resent a long campaign for a protector kingdom. This may even have diplomatic ramifications, your client state grows to resent you if you use their armies too long. Once disbanded that client is exempt from military service for some time and cannot be called upon again for a certain amount of turns. What do people think of this, any ideas to improve the concept?

What you are describing here looks indeed very nice on paper and that's pretty much how client kingdoms worked in reality. In the light of game mechanics, however, I don't think this - or anything closer to it - is achievable even with some advanced scripting.

It would be nice, though, to have, for example, an opportunity to levy some units from the client kingdoms for free at certain time intervals and just pay for their upkeep. That could add some meaning to having client kingdoms instead of just occupying them.