Macedonia Naming Dispute: Solved?

[Sir Adrian]

This solution is extremely reasonable. If greeks don't like it then we can always fall back on the second proposal Macedonia and Southern Macedonia

[Alastor]

I would think the silliness of the topic is self evident

Very good. Then report the thread and ask that it's closed as a matter not-worth discussing. It will be more productive than posting yet another tirade about how silly it is and how people shouldn't care etc etc.

This solution is extremely reasonable. If greeks don't like it then we can always fall back on the second proposal Macedonia and Southern Macedonia

What second proposal? I'm not aware of a second proposal. Also what happens when it's not the Greek parliament but the other side that blocks the agreement? A scenario I personally believe to be more likely. Is there a third proposal then?

[conon394]

Very good. Then report the thread and ask that it's closed as a matter not-worth discussing. It will be more productive than posting yet another tirade about how silly it is and how people shouldn't care etc etc.

My parents did not raise a narc. So let's just stick with the irrational dislike of one name of a European country by another for no particular reason. Why does anyone in modern Greece care if another country is called Macedonia? Why does 'Greece" care? I mean really Was Greece planning on changing its name? Do you think Turkey will invade or what?

[Alastor]

My parents did not raise a narc. So let's just stick with the irrational dislike of one name of a European country by another for no particular reason. Why does anyone in modern Greece care if another country is called Macedonia? Why does 'Greece" care? I mean really Was Greece planning on changing its name? Do you think Turkey will invade or what?

A narc? It's a public discussion. A moderator started it. They can already see it. And irrational? Really? I assume you have a mathematical proof for that up your sleeve too? Please. Why modern Greece cares is a topic that has been discussed many times over. You didn't like the explanation then, you won't like it now. Lets focus on the current topic which is this proposed agreement instead. That is if you actually care to discuss such a silly, worthless topic. As for Turkey invading, well who knows. Still I would bet it's at least as likely as Russia invading Poland or sth is.

[Vanoi]

As likely as Russia invading Poland? Well thankfully the odds of that are extremely low.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

Don't worry guys I'm sure this will be over by Christmas

[Alastor]

As likely as Russia invading Poland? Well thankfully the odds of that are extremely low.

Well, I said at least, but yes that is my take also. Still many people would disagree. Or Poland wouldn't be asking for American bases. But back on topic please.

Don't worry guys I'm sure this will be over by Christmas

Indeed, it's far from over.

I have been unable to find any public opinion polls from FYROM regarding the deal. I know there have been several protests but I've yet to see polls. Which I find odd, especially since they are going to conduct a referendum before ratifying the deal. So public opinion there can indeed sink it. Gruevski's old party, VMRO-DPMNE, is predictably opposed to it. They still represent a good ~40% of the electorate. Zaev's party represents a bit less than that. And then of course there is the Albanians. I believe they would go for the deal and give Zaev the votes he needs in the parliament, provided he manages to keep his party in line. But then he will have to convince his electorate the deal is a good idea too. If not, the deal is off. Tsipras and his coalition control the majority of seats in the Greek parliament. So, provided nothing changes till autumn, the Greek side will ratify it. Which is why I am more interested in what the other side is up to.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's excellent news. This pathetic issue has retarded the region for too long.

[Basil II the B.S]

You know it's bad knews when those who hate Greece celebrate.

Greece has far more pressing issues than what a sovereign nation chooses to name itself. If they're gonna keep throwing hissy fits over another country's name instead of fixing their economy, their priorities are skewed.

''Greece has more pressing issues, that's why they should throw away their cultural heritage''.

Retarded argument. They should just embargo FYROM, block investments, streets and send them back to the stone age, where they can finally build their history from scratch.

[Emperor Arcturus Mengsk]

I never really minded the name it self, what always irked me was the drive to claim ancient Macedonian history, with the inclusion of the Vergina Sun on the flag before it was changed for example.

What does the Vergina Sun has to do with that part of the world?

Vergina (Greek: Βεργίνα[verˈʝina]) is a small town in northern Greece, part of Veroia municipality in Imathia, Central Macedonia. Vergina was established in 1922 in the aftermath of the population exchanges after the Treaty of Lausanne and was a separate municipality until 2011, when it was merged with Veroia under the Kallikratis Plan. It is now a municipal unit within Veroia, with an area 69.047 km².^[2]Vergina is best known as the site of ancient Aigai (Αἰγαί, Latinized Aegae), the first capital of Macedon. It was there when in 336 BC Philip II was assassinated in the theatre and Alexander the Great was proclaimed king. The ancient site was discovered in 1976 and excavated under the leadership of archaeologist Manolis Andronikos. The excavation unearthed the burial sites of many kings of Macedon, including the tomb of Philip II, father of Alexander the Great, which, unlike so many other tombs, had not been disturbed or looted. It is also the site of an extensive royal palace. The archaeological museum of Vergina was built to house all the artifacts found at the site and is one of the most important museums in Greece.
Aigai has been awarded UNESCOWorld Heritage Site status as "an exceptional testimony to a significant development in European civilization, at the transition from classical city-state to the imperial structure of the Hellenistic and Roman periods".

Then naming squares and airports to Alexander the Great, and building statues of him.


There was a time that the whole thing was getting at very comical levels north of the border. I've been to the city of Skopje by train while I was travelling around the balkans, and I felt like I was in some kind of North Korean Theme Park designed to instill patriotic fervor for something that doesn't exist.

[neoptolemos]

I never really minded the name it self, what always irked me was the drive to claim ancient Macedonian history, with the inclusion of the Vergina Sun on the flag before it was changed for example.

What does the Vergina Sun has to do with that part of the world?



Then naming squares and airports to Alexander the Great, and building statues of him.


There was a time that the whole thing was getting at very comical levels north of the border. I've been to the city of Skopje by train while I was travelling around the balkans, and I felt like I was in some kind of North Korean Theme Park designed to instill patriotic fervor for something that doesn't exist.

Why do you think the nationalists in FYROM are against the deal? The deal demands them to change their constitution about "macedonian minorities" and clearly states that they declare they have no connection with the ancient Macedonians which will recognize as part of the greek regional history and culture. The irredentism in FYROMian nationalists see the whole of Ottoman Macedonia as their "motherland" and the slavic speakers in Greece as a "minority".

[bekiristein]

My parents did not raise a narc. So let's just stick with the irrational dislike of one name of a European country by another for no particular reason. Why does anyone in modern Greece care if another country is called Macedonia? Why does 'Greece" care? I mean really Was Greece planning on changing its name? Do you think Turkey will invade or what?

It has beem discussed a thousand times in these forums and you are quite active. You really want to start that discussion now we have an agreement?
As for the agreement the Greek public before demonstrating should really take a look on what has been agree since the intermediate accord between the two countries and understand that in a negotiation you win and you loose something.

[Alastor]

It has beem discussed a thousand times in these forums and you are quite active. You really want to start that discussion now we have an agreement?

The agreement needs to be ratified first. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? If it is not ratified, it is not valid. I have spoken at some length in earlier posts about the hurdles that need to be overcome first.

As for the agreement the Greek public before demonstrating should really take a look on what has been agree since the intermediate accord between the two countries and understand that in a negotiation you win and you loose something.

Certainly, but you can always lose more, or win more. The point is finding a workable compromise. Can a compromise be workable if society at large rejects it? I would say the Greek public believes they lost decisively more than they won with this agreement. A legitimate opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if the other side thinks similarly, though I still can't find a poll. As for me personally, I would be more than happy if this is how Tsipras finally meets his Waterloo. I mean sure it's not like anyone better will take his place, I'm disillusioned enough to know better than that. Still, one scumbag at a time. I mean hell, even Gruevski ended up in jail, if FYROM can imprison a scumbag prime-minster, maybe there is some hope for Greece too, one day.

[bekiristein]

The agreement needs to be ratified first. Why does everyone keep forgetting that? If it is not ratified, it is not valid. I have spoken at some length in earlier posts about the hurdles that need to be overcome first.
Certainly, but you can always lose more, or win more. The point is finding a workable compromise. Can a compromise be workable if society at large rejects it? I would say the Greek public believes they lost decisively more than they won with this agreement. A legitimate opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if the other side thinks similarly, though I still can't find a poll. As for me personally, I would be more than happy if this is how Tsipras finally meets his Waterloo. I mean sure it's not like anyone better will take his place, I'm disillusioned enough to know better than that. Still, one scumbag at a time. I mean hell, even Gruevski ended up in jail, if FYROM can imprison a scumbag prime-minster, maybe there is some hope for Greece too, one day.

Yes someone should have explain with clarity what it has been agreed with interim accord, why so many nations have recognized them with their consituitonal name and what thar means for the negotiations.Even Phyrom includes Maxedonia. So ND at least shouldnt try to gain votes. And I hate Syriza but I also remember Samaras, Evert and Mitsotakis.

[Alastor]

Yes someone should have explain with clarity what it has been agreed with interim accord, why so many nations have recognized them with their consituitonal name and what thar means for the negotiations.Even Phyrom includes Maxedonia. So ND at least shouldnt try to gain votes. And I hate Syriza but I also remember Samaras, Evert and Mitsotakis.

Certainly. Someone serious and dependable that enjoys the people's trust should come out and explain the situation to the public properly. It would make the people more malleable to a compromise. But good luck finding a single politician fitting that description. The Greek government has long given up on that too, why bother convincing the people, when you can simply decide in their name, tell them to suck it and feed them some chemicals if they dare protest. "Democracies"... pfft. As for Samaras, worry not, he is on my list also. Right after Tsipras. And as for Evert and Mitsotakis (sr), well they have a redeeming feature in common. They are dead. So they can wait until the living have been dealt with.

[AnthoniusII]

This solution is extremely reasonable. If greeks don't like it then we can always fall back on the second proposal Macedonia and Southern Macedonia

That would lead to a dual invasion in FYROM both from Serbia and Greece to not allow the union of Albanians of north FYROM to unite with Kosovo and south FYROM to unite with Bulgaria.

You know it's bad knews when those who hate Greece celebrate.


''Greece has more pressing issues, that's why they should throw away their cultural heritage''.

Retarded argument. They should just embargo FYROM, block investments, streets and send them back to the stone age, where they can finally build their history from scratch.

I said it before. (I will use Silmarilion tale of Tolkien as example). Consider Greeks like Noldors. Their history , their culture and their philotimo are their Silmarils. They would prefer to see world destroyed than to sell one of those.
But as I also said...realpolitik has some hiden points that Greek Foreign Afairs Minister brought to light in the greek parliament. Greece makes a compromise in the name to gain time and sphear of actions for the incomming Balkan war.
The rest of you that might mock his statements , pray that this balkan war wont transform to a 3rd WW like the 1st Balkan wars prepaired the WW1! Pray that this wont happen.

[bekiristein]

That would lead to a dual invasion in FYROM both from Serbia and Greece to not allow the union of Albanians of north FYROM to unite with Kosovo and south FYROM to unite with Bulgaria.


I said it before. (I will use Silmarilion tale of Tolkien as example). Consider Greeks like Noldors. Their history , their culture and their philotimo are their Silmarils. They would prefer to see world destroyed than to sell one of those.
But as I also said...realpolitik has some hiden points that Greek Foreign Afairs Minister brought to light in the greek parliament. Greece makes a compromise in the name to gain time and sphear of actions for the incomming Balkan war.
The rest of you that might mock his statements , pray that this balkan war wont transform to a 3rd WW like the 1st Balkan wars prepaired the WW1! Pray that this wont happen.

No Balkan war in the near future, at least one that Greece is evolved. Who is going to fight who?On the contrary if N.Macedonia enters Nato or Eu the area becomes more stable.Or maybe you have the same democratic opinion as our former prime minister Samaras who thought that a disolution of N. Macedonia will eventually solve the problem?
The thing is that oppinions as no solution or a solution wich would not include Macedonia brought as here to a much worse agreement that what we could achieve back in 1992.Off course back than it was the public that was demonstrating,populists politicians etc, not much different situation than today. So in order to be conviced that this is not a good agreement someone has to prove me that now or in the near future a better solution could be achieved with logical not emotional arguments.
Btw I am tired of populism in Greece, I see the same people who were voting Pasok posting in the social media Pasok memes and nationalistic posts,people voting Syriza or Nd for the same reason that they were voting Pasok and Nd, demonstrating without having spend an hour to read about the issue,GD getting a lot of votes etc. So thats the public in Greece and Greek filotimo.

[AnthoniusII]

No Balkan war in the near future, at least one that Greece is evolved. Who is going to fight who?On the contrary if N.Macedonia enters Nato or Eu the area becomes more stable.Or maybe you have the same democratic opinion as our former prime minister Samaras who thought that a disolution of N. Macedonia will eventually solve the problem?
The thing is that oppinions as no solution or a solution wich would not include Macedonia brought as here to a much worse agreement that what we could achieve back in 1992.Off course back than it was the public that was demonstrating,populists politicians etc, not much different situation than today. So in order to be conviced that this is not a good agreement someone has to prove me that now or in the near future a better solution could be achieved with logical not emotional arguments.
Btw I am tired of populism in Greece, I see the same people who were voting Pasok posting in the social media Pasok memes and nationalistic posts,people voting Syriza or Nd for the same reason that they were voting Pasok and Nd, demonstrating without having spend an hour to read about the issue,GD getting a lot of votes etc. So thats the public in Greece and Greek filotimo.

You missed my previus posts.
What Foreign Afairs Minister Gotzias said in the parliament was this you mention. Inorder to delay or make balkans more stable and secure against Turkey's and Albania's agresivness the compromise in the name was a must. I watched all those that spoke in that 8 hours 2nd day of discusion! Gotzias -for the 1st time of a Minister- asked DIRECTLY to Major Opposition party leader "Do you want to see a new Ottoman Empire or a Great Albania or a Great Bulgaria, if yes say so"!!! That is what i call "hidden points" but these times not so hidden at all! In Facebook i made in ΠΤΗΣΗ (Flight) magasine article a post with a war scenario and an Officer of War School (ΣΕΘΑ) was impressed how detailed this scenarion was and asked my permision to use it. Do not allow your selves to dream a world that everyone can be involved to a war but not us...
My article was this:

Για όσους δεν είδαν χθες ΟΛΗ τη συζήτηση στη Βουλή για το Σκοπιανό. Ο Κοτζιας για πρώτη φορά ήταν ξεκάθαρος. Ετοιμαζόμαστε για 3ο Βαλκανικό Πόλεμο εναντία στην Τουρκία και την Αλβανία και έπρεπε να υπάρχει (όπως και στον 1ο Βαλκανικό πόλεμο) ένα έδαφος-μια "γέφυρα" μεταξύ Ελλάδας και Σερβίας που είναι οι μόνες με μεγάλους σχετικά στρατούς. Έτσι θα αποκόψουν την σύνδεση της Τουρκίας με την Αλβανία μέσω την νότιας Βουλγαρίας που οι πλειονότητα είναι Τούρκοι στην καταγωγή και των Σκοπίων και ο κάθε ένας στρατός θα αναλάβει ενα πολεμικό μέτωπο. Οι Σέρβοι δεν ξεχνανε το Κόσσοβο και άρα οι Αλβανοί θα δυσκολευτούν να ανοίξουν 2ο πολεμικό μέτωπο με την Ελλάδα που θα αναλάβει την Τουρκία στο Αιγαίο και τη Κύπρο αφου η Βουλγαρία δεν εχει καθόλου ποια στρατό όπως είχε το 1987 που μας βοήθησε! Ξέρουμε ότι δεν μπορούμε να περιμένουμε βοήθεια από πουθενά αλλού. Δείτε την ομιλία Κοτζια όταν ρωτούσε στην Βουλή εάν θέλουμε μια νέα Οθωμανική Αυτοκρατορία η μια Μεγάλη Αλβανία , προσθέστε και τις 4 συνεδριάσεις των 4 (Σερβία, Βουλγαρία, Ρουμανία και Ελλάδας) τους τελευταίους 18 μήνες , βάλτε το μυαλό σας να δουλέψει και θα δείτε τα πράγματα ποιο καθαρά. Θυμηθείτε μόνο ότι και τον Βενιζέλο που μεγάλωσε την Ελλάδα τον είχαν χαρακτηρίσει ΠΡΟΔΟΤΗ αλλά όταν είδαν στην πράξη τα σχέδια του τότε κατάλαβαν τι σχεδίαζε για χρόνια. Βλέπετε ειδήσεις αλλά σας ξεφεύγουν οι κυριότερες. Χωρίς λεφτά πάμε να εκσυγχρονίσουμε 85 αεροπλάνα και να αγοράσουμε 80 τορπίλες για τα υποβρυχια μας που είναι άοπλα. Αγοράζουμε 90 μεταχειρισμένα ελικόπτερα παρά την κρίση....Η Τουρκία έγινε υπερδύναμη και εμείς τρέχουμε να καλύψουμε κενά σε μια καταιγίδα που είναι έτοιμη να ξεσπάσει. Καταλάβατε τώρα γιατί υποχωρούμε στο ονομα? Και μην μου πει κανείς οτι δεν είμαι Μακεδόνας η πατριώτης ...Γιατί τουλάχιστον και τα 2 σόγια μου είναι Μακεδόνες και όχι Πόντιοι ούτε άλλοι πρόσφυγες!! Και εγώ δεν θέλω να δοθεί το όνομα αλλά ούτε να χαθεί κάποιο νησί ούτε να χαθεί η Θράκη η τα Γιάννενα ούτε η υπόλοιπη Κύπρος. Έτσι για να μάθουμε να βλέπουμε και τα ψιλά γράμματα που εμείς οι Έλληνες συνέχεια τα παραβλέπουμε.

Translation:

For those who did not see yesterday all the discussion in the Parliament for Skopje. Kotzias was for the first time clear. We were preparing for the 3rd Balkan War against Turkey and Albania, and there had to be (as in the 1st Balkan War) a land-a bridge - between Greece and Serbia that is the only ones with relatively large armies. This will cut off Turkey's connection with Albania through southern Bulgaria, most of whom are Turks in the origin , with Skopje, and each army will take on a war front. Serbs have not forgotten Kosovo, so the Albanians will have difficulty opening a second war front with Greece allowing Greece taking over Turkey in the Aegean and Cyprus beacuse Bulgaria has no army as it did in 1987 that helped us! We know we can not wait for help anywhere else. See the Koutzias speech when asking the Major Opposition Party if we want a new Ottoman Empire or Greater Albania, add all 4 meetings of 4 (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania and Greece) in the last 18 months, put your mind to work and you will see things clean. Remember only that Venizelos, who made Greece great, accused as traitor, but when they saw his plans in practice, they realized what he was planning for years. You see news but the main ones escape you. Without money we are going to modernize 85 planes and buy 80 torpedoes for our submarines that are unarmed. We buy 90 used helicopters despite the crisis .... Turkey became a superpower and we are running to fill gaps in a storm that is about to break . Did you understand now why we retreat to the name dispute? And do not tell me that I am not a Macedonian patriot ... Why at least my two fammilies are Macedonians and not Pontians or other refugees !! I do not want to give the name either, but neither to lose an island nor to lose Thrace or Giannena or the rest of Cyprus. So to learn to see the fine prints that we Greeks continually ignore.

[bekiristein]

@ Antonius. Fears for what a possible separation of the Albanians would mean for the region have been expressed since the fall of communism. Thats an issue that both countries agree. Nothing new here.
As for the Ptisi article, I have to remind you that one of the reasons Greece buys weapons is not to have a war with Turkey, not because of an imminent war. The rest article is wrong, you are thinking like its early 20th century.

[Alastor]

Hehe, the Greek government is accusing Mitsotakis (opposition leader) that he has provided assurances to Berlin he wouldn't overturn a deal if he managed to oust and replace Tsipras. Apparently the source they use is an article in FAZ, but I was not able to find it. So I can't confirm if he was talking about this deal, or a deal in general. Or even that the Greek government didn't just pull this whole story out of its ass. Still, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is indeed true. Since it would verify both my impression that Greece ratifying the agreement is a done deal and my opinion that the Greek political establishment is totally bankrupt. Mitsotakis as the current leader of the ND positions himself as a fierce critic of the deal in a blatant attempt to win some more votes.