Estonia to remove Soviet memorial

[wilpuri]

Estonia to remove Soviet memorial


The memorial has inspired violence between communities

The president of Estonia has signed into law a bill allowing the removal of a controversial Soviet war memorial from the centre of the capital Tallinn.

The bronze statue of a Soviet soldier, erected in 1947, is regarded by many as a symbol of Soviet occupation.

However, the large ethnic-Russian population in Estonia see it as a symbol of liberation from the Nazis.

The decision has angered Russia too. The Russian parliament is expected to adopt a statement denouncing the law.

The soldier has become a symbol of the divisions in Estonian society, says the BBC's Baltic correspondent Laura Sheeter.

The Soviet Union annexed Estonia at the end of World War II, and it remained a Soviet republic until the collapse of the USSR nearly 50 years later.

'Lack of respect'

After clashes at the monument between Estonian nationalists and ethnic Russian activists last year, the government decided that it should be taken down, and moved to a less controversial location.

To that end they proposed two bills - one which allows them to move monuments which glorify any occupying power, and the other, which was passed on Wednesday - which allows for the exhumation and reburial of soldiers' remains.

It is thought that several soldiers are buried underneath the monument, and the government argues that it is impossible for their graves to receive the proper respect, when protesters gather and fight at the site.

The statue and the remains of the buried Red Army soldiers will be moved to a cemetery.

Their plans have not just aroused local passions, however.

Russia, which does not agree that the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, has suggested that it is symptomatic of a rebirth of fascism in Estonia.

Moscow described plans in Estonia to criminalise Soviet symbols like the hammer and sickle - effectively equating them with the Nazi swastika - as "blasphemous".

Go Eesti!

And "symptomatic of a rebirth of fascism in Estonia"? Fascism was never born in Estonia, Estonia was occupied by fascism, and after that, Stalinism (for the second time). There are no monuments of the former, so lets get rid of the latter as well.

[Town Watch]

Isn't there some sort of Estonian waffen-ss memorial/burial ground? If it still exists, good, because they were also war heroes who fought valiantly for their country.

My friend's grandmother, who lived in Estonia then, said about those times that there was one difference between russians and germans: the germans buried the bodies...


I really don't know how much truth was in that quote though.

[wilpuri]

Isn't there some sort of Estonian waffen-ss memorial/burial ground? If it still exists, good, because they were also war heroes who fought valiantly for their country.

I think they've been removed (at least the one at Lihula) due to pressure from Russia, EU and various Jewish groups.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

I think they've been removed (at least the one at Lihula) due to pressure from Russia, EU and various Jewish groups.

Did they remove graveyards? :S

Ok, the thing is that they could do that to the SS leaders who tortured Jews and non-Germans alike but most of the 18 and 20 year old men rushed into enemy fire thinking they were doing something good.

[Bwaho]

I think it's a good thing. I wouldn't want memorials from cruel occupiers left in my country.

Russia, which does not agree that the Soviet Union occupied Estonia

oook? so what's their side of the story?

has suggested that it is symptomatic of a rebirth of fascism in Estonia.

hah, yeah right

[cegorach]

A good decision !

IN Poland the monuments were removed as well, but of course it didn't affect the war graveyards which are kept in good condition - there are no NKVD graveyards though, but I doubt there were any left here - such warcriminals do not deserve it.

[wilpuri]

Did they remove graveyards? :S

Ok, the thing is that they could do that to the SS leaders who tortured Jews and non-Germans alike but most of the 18 and 20 year old men rushed into enemy fire thinking they were doing something good.

I misread the question. A monument was erected in Lihula some years ago to honour Estonians, who had volunteered to fight in German uniform in defence of Estonia from the Soviets.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

only one question - how on earth can Russia honestly disagree that they occupied Estonia?

or do they call it 'liberation-that-lasted-slightly-longer-than-expected'?

[RusskiSoldat]

So the Balts continue to cover up their own past of Nazi sympathy while blaming Russia for everything. What else is new?

[wilpuri]

So the Balts continue to cover up their own past of Nazi sympathy while blaming Russia for everything. What else is new?

Russians in denial?

And Estonians are hardly Balts. Perhaps some reading would do you good before you enter this conversation.

[RZZZA]

pffft, all those countries should rightfully be Russia's still. estonia, latvia, lithuania...belarus...

[wilpuri]

pffft, all those countries should rightfully be Russia's still. estonia, latvia, lithuania...belarus...

And you should quit trolling.

[RZZZA]

And you should quit trolling.

Its all still russia in my mind, I will not pretend as if belarus is oh so different from russia. The only reason any of those countries are "independant" now is because the soviets became bankrupted. (and btw, belorus is trying to merge with russia so...)


These little states stay independant only as long as there is peace. Soon as conflict arises, they are too small to remain independant, and are inevitably swallowed up into whatever large country nearby that wishes it. Time after time, either its the polish or the germans or the russians or...the vikings, i dunno. These are barely even real countries in my mind, theyre just fractures from the soviet days which have not yet been mended.

estonia is just a footstool for the republic of novgorod

[cegorach]

Sure... I will just remind you that Russia started as a small duchy of Moscow so you can add them to your list of soon-to-be-extinct.
There is a number of states which can be seen as temporary in other regions of the world - the Netherlands, Belgium, the UK, Spain, Italy, Germany (only 235 years of history !) and so on.
There is almost no country in the world which survived last 500 years without a disastrous change - remember about that instead of the usual 'the little countries suck blah, blah, blah'.

Everyone has its highs and lows - in fact considering the larger periods of history there is no reason why Ukraine cannot devour Muscovy this time or reduce it to the status of border province such as in the XIIIth century.

[wilpuri]

Its all still russia in my mind, I will not pretend as if belarus is oh so different from russia. The only reason any of those countries are "independant" now is because the soviets became bankrupted.

The only reason they've been part of Russia & Soviet Union is injustice. They are nations in their own right. I won't say anything about Belarus, because I know nothing about it, but the Baltic countries are nothing like Russia in spirit.

These little states stay independant only as long as there is peace. Soon as conflict arises, they are too small to remain independant, and are inevitably swallowed up into whatever large country nearby that wishes it. Time after time, either its the polish or the germans or the russians or...the vikings, i dunno. These are barely even real countries in my mind, theyre just fractures from the soviet days which have not yet been mended.

Let us hope that peace prevails then.

estonia is just a footstool for the republic of novgorod

Trolls like these and your ignorance on the subject make your posts painful to read.

[Miraj]

I'm no Balto-Russo relations experts but such a move seems quite disrespectful. I mean its a memorial to the war dead, there should be some level of respect there that should supercede nationalism.

I remember visiting Turkey a while back and we visited a huge memorial dedicated to Australian soldiers killed in Anatolia. The crazy thing is that they were killed fighting the Turks, yet the Turks still show respect for even their enemies.

If Estonia wants to show they are better in spirit than Russia then why would they stoop to such vandalism?

[RZZZA]

The only reason they've been part of Russia & Soviet Union is injustice. They are nations in their own right. I won't say anything about Belarus, because I know nothing about it, but the Baltic countries are nothing like Russia in spirit.

injustice? They got conquered by a stronger and bigger nation, thats all. I believe in might makes right, these tiny nations are completely incapable of defending themselves and yet still wish to be free? Well good luck with that is all I can say.

Let us hope that peace prevails then.

It won't, not for long anyway. There is always a war of conquest around the next corner.

Trolls like these and your ignorance on the subject make your posts painful to read.

Its just some friendly ribbing, im playing on the longtime rift (and hatred, really) that latvia/estonia have for the russians. Its a longtime rivalry, and I believe the russians had won the rivalry fair and square. (or as fair as war ever is, I guess).

[RusskiSoldat]

Looks Baltic to me
I know damn well the proper definition of Balt as a speaker of one of the Baltic languages, but use it for anyone living in the Baltic states.
Shorter than saying "Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians".
As for me being "in denial", judging by how well Balts tend to speak of their German occupiers whenever the topic comes up, I'd say they are the only ones in denial.
But at this point I'll leave the debate as there are approximately three dozen Balts, Poles, and Finns on TWC at this time and I believe myself to be the only Russian and god knows all this is going to turn out is me pointing out Baltic cooperation with the Nazis and you calling me a barbarian.
I have better things to spend my time on.

[Armfelt]

...all this is going to turn out is me pointing out Baltic cooperation with the Nazis...

Who frankly cares about it?

[wilpuri]

Looks Baltic to me
I know damn well the proper definition of Balt as a speaker of one of the Baltic languages, but use it for anyone living in the Baltic states.
Shorter than saying "Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians".
As for me being "in denial", judging by how well Balts tend to speak of their German occupiers whenever the topic comes up, I'd say they are the only ones in denial.
But at this point I'll leave the debate as there are approximately three dozen Balts, Poles, and Finns on TWC at this time and I believe myself to be the only Russian and god knows all this is going to turn out is me pointing out Baltic cooperation with the Nazis and you calling me a barbarian.
I have better things to spend my time on.

LOL. These Nazi-sympathies of yours are a figment of your imagination. Estonians simply chose the lesser evil, from their perspective. You just can't accept that the Nazis looked like choir boys compared to the Soviets in the eyes of the Estonians. I wonder why. Perhaps the lack of mass deportation into starvation and slavery? Who knows. Probably just an aryan-fetish, like you suggest.

And Estonians aren't Balts.