Far better game now

[Zom]

I am enjoying this game so much more now than before the update. Before, after ten turns I was ready to steam roll, which is really not that much fun. Now it has taken me 18 turns just to get my provinces fed (mostly) and moving toward the green instead of rebellion. Still a few flirting with -90, but they are not going down like they were. And finally making some money.

I like how the rewards for sacking Carthage was lowered and for taking Macedonia was razed. Much more balanced.

I am anxious to see what the next 20 turns are like.

[Sheridan]

Very glad that you like it

[Yarev]

Can anyone tell me how to deal with native discontent as I'm always in the red no metter what. After abandoning my Carthage campaign due to ... native discontent and food shortages I decided to wait for the promised rebalancing of Carthage.
Tried Pergamon which controlls only 1 region and I see -26 native discontent (5,6 turns and a rebelion) with only 1 building slot available to deal with it! I mean isn't it a "bit" over the top?
What am I doing wrong?
Any suggestions?

[AltanIV]

Can anyone tell me how to deal with native discontent as I'm always in the red no metter what. After abandoning my Carthage campaign due to ... native discontent and food shortages I decided to wait for the promised rebalancing of Carthage.
Tried Pergamon which controlls only 1 region and I see -26 native discontent (5,6 turns and a rebelion) with only 1 building slot available to deal with it! I mean isn't it a "bit" over the top?
What am I doing wrong?
Any suggestions?

Haven't played Pergamon since a few patches. But the problem I've seen is that Pergamon's state culture is hellenistic while your starting province has 100% makedonian culture. So far the easiest way I've found to deal with that problem was 1st to take Ephesos and then to build a temple (sacred enclosure chain) + a theater to deal with both the culture conversion and the public order. Though to be honest I have been bankrupt for a few turns at one point.

[Fraxinicus]

Should there even be a distinction between Hellenic and Macedonian? The Macedonian elite didn't sponsor Macedonian culture, they sponsored general Hellenic culture, which is what spread across the world with Alexander's conquests. Maybe keep Macedonian culture for Macedon proper, but all the other Diadochi should be Hellenic. This is called the Hellenistic period, after all.

[Freighttrain4]

I agree that it is much better. I haven't put much time into a new campaign as Rome yet but I feel the addition of the Rome 1 sounds as well as music from that and Europa Barbarorum have added to the atmosphere and nostalgic feel. The difficulty of the campaign is nice to feel, watching Kings and Generals videos on stuff like the Cimbrian Wars makes me realize how often Rome got their ass handed to them especially before the Marian Reforms.

[Zom]

I am beginning to think maybe the finances are still unbalanced. After 20 turns the money just rolls in again. Not sure yet if it will be possible to steam roll with stacks; the native discontent requires stacks to remain in newly conquered provinces longer than vanilla. I took Cisalpine Gaul in four moves, but two stacks (not full) are stuck there doing garrison duty while public order is slowly on the mend.

So it is starting to look to me that money will not be a problem ever again but native discontent will be a weight around the ankle.

[Sheridan]

I am beginning to think maybe the finances are still unbalanced. After 20 turns the money just rolls in again. Not sure yet if it will be possible to steam roll with stacks; the native discontent requires stacks to remain in newly conquered provinces longer than vanilla. I took Cisalpine Gaul in four moves, but two stacks (not full) are stuck there doing garrison duty while public order is slowly on the mend.

So it is starting to look to me that money will not be a problem ever again but native discontent will be a weight around the ankle.

Many eco changes are en route. I've identified some issues that hold part of the explanation. Farms were making so much money that industrial buildings were more a liability than investment by comparison. Farm income is being toned down. Another major villain is the trade income. I looked at a 40 turn Roman campaign where the goods exported were worth just 13.5k, but the total trade income was 27k. The modifiers on trade income, and the tariff bonuses, are clearly quite high and needs reviewing. Lastly, and quite interestingly, the slave income modifier (which appears to scale non-linearly) was through the roof after taking some settlements. Adressing that made a difference of 17k, or nearly 20% of all income. To clarify, that was 17k added over a turn that wasn't deserved.

Have you come across similar things in your campaign, Zom? Screenshots of the economy tab could be useful to help me analyze. I don't believe the building balance per se is the big issue, but rather the modifiers from various sources

[Zom]

Have you come across similar things in your campaign, Zom? Screenshots of the economy tab could be useful to help me analyze. I don't believe the building balance per se is the big issue, but rather the modifiers from various sources

Oh, I have not tried to analyze the reasons. I am only reporting my take on the dynamics.

I expect you are correct that the modifiers are the culprit. When you let us build our own mints in every province you can expect us to print our own money. A mint maybe should be reserved to your capitol?

When I get to the 40th move, I will screen shot the economy tab for you since you asked. Maybe other players can do so as well?

[Swarbs]

Many eco changes are en route. I've identified some issues that hold part of the explanation. Farms were making so much money that industrial buildings were more a liability than investment by comparison. Farm income is being toned down. Another major villain is the trade income. I looked at a 40 turn Roman campaign where the goods exported were worth just 13.5k, but the total trade income was 27k. The modifiers on trade income, and the tariff bonuses, are clearly quite high and needs reviewing. Lastly, and quite interestingly, the slave income modifier (which appears to scale non-linearly) was through the roof after taking some settlements. Adressing that made a difference of 17k, or nearly 20% of all income. To clarify, that was 17k added over a turn that wasn't deserved.

Have you come across similar things in your campaign, Zom? Screenshots of the economy tab could be useful to help me analyze. I don't believe the building balance per se is the big issue, but rather the modifiers from various sources

Trade income could do with a look, but also trade resource volume imo. At the moment the top level trade resource buildings, even with the squalor, are much more valuable than any other economy building - even lumber and fish buildings give 1,440 income for just 640 cost with no PO penalties and more valuable resources give even more. The amount of fish from ports also seems a bit much - at the moment with the income from the fish resources the fishing port gives more money than the trading port, with lower piracy and extra food.

Also should the Bread and Circuses edict for Rome be so strong? I appreciate it is one of their unique abilities, but it gives public order, positive income and state religion bonuses, with the only cost being a small loss of slaves per turn. Add that to the bonuses from the Colosseum side of the building tree and it seems to vastly outweigh any other edict for public order boosts and adding income.

Across ten provinces in my Rome game, nine of them are running Bread and Circuses, for a total income boost of 9,000 when entertainment buildings are considered. Seems like there should be some form of cost associated with it as well to make it more balanced. Even Magna Graecia and Baetica, with 100% public order, are running it.

[Fraxinicus]

There shouldn't be a problem with getting a huge surplus 20 turns in, and is it much different if we have to wait 40 turns instead? You can't balance the game around always having a small positive income, it's too difficult to ensure that player empire is always in that sweet spot between bankruptcy and whatever upper limit is deemed to be undesirable. Better to limit the amount of armies the player has access to for a longer period of time (maybe make imperium harder to get?), and give us some big strategic money sinks that we will have to save up for even with 20k profit a turn.

[Swarbs]

There shouldn't be a problem with getting a huge surplus 20 turns in, and is it much different if we have to wait 40 turns instead? You can't balance the game around always having a small positive income, it's too difficult to ensure that player empire is always in that sweet spot between bankruptcy and whatever upper limit is deemed to be undesirable. Better to limit the amount of armies the player has access to for a longer period of time (maybe make imperium harder to get?), and give us some big strategic money sinks that we will have to save up for even with 20k profit a turn.

I don't think you need to try and balance around the 'sweet spot' between bankruptcy and a specific limit. But I do think there needs to be a realistic progression of income and expenses.

As it stands at the moment, once you get to around 10 provinces you essentially generate more money than you can spend. I'm upgrading every building and recruiting a new full stack every turn with the Field or Mars and still bringing in plenty of cash. +50k per turn in winter, +70k per turn the rest of the time.

The game definitely suffers a bit for it, as I don't need to worry about managing the economy at all, and I don't think an artificial money sink would be the solution. There definitely needs to be some realistic increase in expenses as an empire grows, and at least the potential for a dynamic financial crisis at some point which would need the player to respond.

[Maetharin]

Concerning the difference between Makedonian and Hellenic culture, maybe picture it like a multi-nationalistic Hellenic population as opposed to a purely Makedonian one.
Although I do think that Macedonian culture ought to be very compatible with a Hellenic one, there is a subtle difference.
F.e. the inhabitants of many Greek cities in Asia Minor were only citizens of their Polis, but were still part of the Pergamese kingdom.

[Fraxinicus]

Concerning the difference between Makedonian and Hellenic culture, maybe picture it like a multi-nationalistic Hellenic population as opposed to a purely Makedonian one.
Although I do think that Macedonian culture ought to be very compatible with a Hellenic one, there is a subtle difference.
F.e. the inhabitants of many Greek cities in Asia Minor were only citizens of their Polis, but were still part of the Pergamese kingdom.

Then the name should be changed to Hellenistic or something. Or they can be made Greek and given bonuses which reduce or eliminate cultural unrest. They'll still lack the positive PO from actually having their culture present, and in fact that might be a way of balancing them, because as of now they start with or quickly gain Macedonian cultural dominance everywhere.

[Zom]

Not sure how this will help you, Sheridan. Or maybe I did not understand what you want a shot of.

[Sheridan]

Thank you Swarbs. Balancing around your suggestions for trade. Public order penalties were added to all resource buildings, scaling with tier. A food consumption mechanic has been added to the Bread & Games edict. As much as the income and public order increases with the size of the amphitheatre or hippodrome, so too does the food consumption now. The income from the edict will also be balanced better. Bread & Games, and entertainment buildings in general, aren't meant to be money printers.

The net value from a resource building can be manipulated in several ways. Reducing the value of the trade goods would be the simplest option. I don't know if trade volume has any practical impact on the gameplay besides the income, so to me they're equal candidates for adjustment.

[Yarev]

In my opinion the main problem is with the bonuses (trade and slaves). Especially slaves and i'm not talking about public order but rather how much they can contribute to the tax level. Recently my slaves have gone up from 0% to 110% after just one battle. I was able to deal with public disorder penalty from slaves but received 110 % spike in tax which in just couple of turns made me 150k! With that amount of money i can deal with any threat (public disorder, building all the buildings I want, attacking rebels with mercenaries), basicly it was game breaking. The slaves need to be toned down all the more when i dont even take any after battle but either replenish or kill

[Sheridan]

In my opinion the main problem is with the bonuses (trade and slaves). Especially slaves and i'm not talking about public order but rather how much they can contribute to the tax level. Recently my slaves have gone up from 0% to 110% after just one battle. I was able to deal with public disorder penalty from slaves but received 110 % spike in tax which in just couple of turns made me 150k! With that amount of money i can deal with any threat (public disorder, building all the buildings I want, attacking rebels with mercenaries), basicly it was game breaking. The slaves need to be toned down all the more when i dont even take any after battle but either replenish or kill

That should in all respects be considered a bug. It's been corrected. You will now have to get by with a mere fifteenth of the slave income.

[Totalknight]

i dont think the economy needs much more change, its fines, slight change here and there.. we def need food lol.. can we expect a patch tonight??