Units (merged two threads)

[molonthegreat]

Which units will be in? and Leidang should not be like militia it should be like a an militia navy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leidang

[tnick777]

There'll be alot... We have the Maximum amount of factions, so I'm looking at

29 Important (non-rebel) factions... 2-3 Special Units

58-87 exotic units

[Beiss]

Is there any chance we could add the ability to unmount troops in this mod? Viking cavalry was pretty boohoo.

[Harðurāðaz]

Is there any chance we could add the ability to unmount troops in this mod? Viking cavalry was pretty boohoo.

I think that is hardcoded

[tnick777]

Yea. We'll have to see how that would be.

[Beiss]

An interesting page: http://www.commersen.se/vikingar/strid/strid.html

[Athokas]

The Danish faction or all the norse factions should be able to recruit man with a "daneøkse" (don't know what it's called in english). It was a very long axe, sorta used as a spear. It could reach behind the enemies shields and disarm them. It would be cool to have such a unit
There's a picture of one here:http://ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk/images/pic1340.jpg

[Internazionale]

The Danish faction or all the norse factions should be able to recruit man with a "daneøkse" (don't know what it's called in english). It was a very long axe, sorta used as a spear. It could reach behind the enemies shields and disarm them. It would be cool to have such a unit
There's a picture of one here:http://ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk/images/pic1340.jpg

A axe used as a spear, is called a Pole-arm or Halebard

[Beiss]

The link I justed posted contains a page about berserkers. It suggests berserkers were people who had an inherited mental defect that enabled them to go berserk. They lived away from other people because they had terrible temper and were called upon only during wartimes, as they were dangerous to have around any day. After a berserker rage, during which even their own troops didn't dare go too near them, the berserkers became so exhausted that they had to be litterary carried away from the battlefield.

Is there any way we could implement some of this? Making the berserkers potentially dangerous to their own troops would be the same as an elephant gone wild, I guess, but making the berserkers loose their stamina very much quicker than usual during their berserker rage? Is that possible?

Maybe the building needed to recruit berserkers would be a "talent scout" building sort of, one necessary to go out in the woods and find these berserkers because none of them live in town... heh.

The Danish faction or all the norse factions should be able to recruit man with a "daneøkse" (don't know what it's called in english). It was a very long axe, sorta used as a spear. It could reach behind the enemies shields and disarm them. It would be cool to have such a unit
There's a picture of one here:http://ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk/images/pic1340.jpg

All I can see there is a long stick.

[Duke_of_Bavaria]

The link I justed posted contains a page about berserkers. It suggests berserkers were people who had an inherited mental defect that enabled them to go berserk. They lived away from other people because they had terrible temper and were called upon only during wartimes, as they were dangerous to have around any day. After a berserker rage, during which even their own troops didn't dare go too near them, the berserkers became so exhausted that they had to be litterary carried away from the battlefield.

Is there any way we could implement some of this? Making the berserkers potentially dangerous to their own troops would be the same as an elephant gone wild, I guess, but making the berserkers loose their stamina very much quicker than usual during their berserker rage? Is that possible?

Maybe the building needed to recruit berserkers would be a "talent scout" building sort of, one necessary to go out in the woods and find these berserkers because none of them live in town... heh.



All I can see there is a long stick.

It didn't have to be like that. Many berserkers were simply people who had listened to fortunetellers who told them that they will be fine. Hence they dared to completely nuts and ignore defence. Berserk doesn't neccessarily mean that you get pissed off and kill anything in your way. It may just mean that you go nuts because you know you can't die anyway.

[tnick777]

Berserks were the 'game over' unit. They were actually sparsely used because, as you said, genetics made them that way. The one thing I praise VI for doing is having 12 per batallion and having a 2 turn period for them. They are kinda like in BI the Lombard Berserks... but more dangerous... and a hell of alot more powerful.

In one song they go "Let the world say once more, save us again from the wrath of the norseman. Let the Berserks rises again, save us oh lord from the wrath of the norseman"

Sends chills down my spines.

To get them I'm thinking of having the building called "berserker village" or something

[Beiss]

I don't think they should be like the lombard berserkers though, making people fly to the left and right. I just think that, as opposed to the other stupid units in the game who just stand in one spot and stare for seconds on end, berserkers have their attack animation playing all the time, never stopping to stare stupidly at the terrified enemy. They could still be hit pretty easily, but to compensate for the fact that they probably didn't feel the pain during their rage, they could get a few more hitpoints than other units. Their defense should still be pretty bad, though.

[tnick777]

I never said they'd act like Lombards I agree that was tacky when you unleased the lombards and all of a suddon 'its raining men'.

Kinda more like when you get them pumped up they do their own thing. They go off and fight ferociously.

[Beiss]

Yeah. That's what I meant.

[tnick777]

go to this website
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=57842

Nice stuff there.. I contacted the poster of that thread to see if he would like to help us out later... That'd be cool..

There's good material in there

[WMS]

The britons and gaels of ireland scotland and wales traditionally relied heavily on lighter infantry, skirmishers were a primary element of most armies. in Cymru (Wales) archery was an EXTREMELY important tradition, and the welsh are historically renowned for their skill and the devastation they can cause with the bow. The celtic peoples of the british isles had literally been fighting invaders for centuries, since the time of the romans, and their invasion of Prydein (Briton), up to the saxons, angles, jutes, frisians, english, vikings, and normans. The britons were fierce warriors, fiercely proud and extremely skilled, though they had far less formal training than many other armies of the day, were much more poorly equipped in comparison. most men whore little to no armor, at most usually hardened leather, mail was rather uncommon, as the britons (the welsh especcially) preferred to fight light and use ambush tactics to avoid directly engaging heaily armored and equipped english/viking/or norman invaders. the longbow as we know it was invented in Wales, and the Welsh used it with devastating skill. it would be foolish not to include longbowmen for the welsh at this time, though, the saxons (english) at this time did not use them, and rarely used bows at all for that matter. for the saxons, only nobles tended to have bows, which were used only for hunting. if a commoner were to use a bow, it could quite easily be assumed that he was a poacher and could be executed, this is why the normans at the battle of hastings were heavily restricted in their use of arrow ammunition, as the saxons used no bows and fired no arrows, the normans (who were accustomed to picking up arrows that had been fired at them and firing them back at their enemies) had nothing to sustain their bombardments with after a few volleys. the most commons weapons of the celtic peoples of the british isles were the spear, swords, and javelin. lances, axes, and bows were used as welll (especially by the Welsh). this gives many ideas for unitits for the "gaelic" or "celtic" factions.

"Unlike most countries in Europe at the time, the style and method of medieval Welsh warfare was not overly influenced by feudalism. The survival of earlier traditions of pre-Roman and early medieval Celtic culture in Wales was reflected in military terms - not least because the heavily armoured feudal horseman could not properly operate in the rough and hilly ground covering much of Wales.

The Welsh armies which faced Anglo-Norman incursions were based around the individual princes' and chieftains' personal bodyguards (Teulu). The rest of the force would comprise of any local men over the age of 14; this service was seen as a privilege, as opposed to feudal militias who saw such service as an obligation. The only men over the age of 14 who were exempt from such service were those who were tenants on church lands. A prince could call out his host once a year, and they would only have to serve in campaigns outside of their principality for up to 6 weeks..



The Teulu (literally meaning "family") were strongly armed and mounted retainers. They were armed as a feudal knight, in chainmail and helmet, and carrying a shield and lance. Early in this period, the Teulu may have used javelins instead of lances, just like their Norman counterparts. In the C11th, the normal size of a prince's Teulu was 120 men; Llywelyn ap Gryffydd had a Teulu of 160 in 1282.

Extra aid early in the period was enlisted from Irish and Scandinavian mercenaries. In the C15th, Owain Glyndwr was helped by a small number of French troops.

The size of a Welsh prince's host could vary according to the campaign and his own resources. A small raiding party could consist of a very select few only, whereas hosts for stand-up battles could be much larger. Gryffydd ap Rhys of Deheubarth fielded 6,000 foot and 2,000 cavalry in his massive victory over the English at Crug Mawr in 1136. Llywelyn ap Gryffydd fought for Simon de Montfort in 1256 with 30,000 infantry and 500 cavalry; in his final campaign against Edward I in 1282, he had a force of 7,000 foot plus his Teulu of 160.

The men of north Wales were mostly spearmen (the best being from Merionethshire and Cynan), and those from south Wales were mainly archers (the best being from Gwent, who were "accustomed to war"). However, this does not mean that the north Welsh had no archers, or vice versa.

The warriors were dressed in a linen shirt (often red) and linen drawers; they covered these with a woolen cloak hanging to their knees, which was sometimes described as being "thin". Several manuscripts depict Welsh warriors as having only one shoe and their other foot bare - this probably allowed them to keep a balance on hilly or rough terrain. Hair was worn short, and was shaped around the eyes and ears; moustaches were popular, but beards were not.

As mentioned above, the main weapons were long spears and bows, but javelins were also used, as were maces, gisarmes, and axes. A circular shield was carried by the foot soldiers, decorated white, yellow, silver, or blue. The bow used by the Welsh was made of elm, and unlike the way in which the English later utilised it, Welsh bows were fired at close range, as an ambush weapon. During fighting at Abergavenny Castle, one arrow was recorded to have penetrated a horseman's mail covered leg, through his saddle, and into his horse far enough to kill it; another arrow was fired 4" into an oak door.


As mentioned before, the Teulu consisted of better equipped horsemen, known individually as Uchelwr; these upper class warriors also favoured red tunics, and dressed for battle in a similar style to the English knights ("Marchogs"). Although armed with lances, early Uchelwr's probably threw javelins like their Marchog rivals. Heraldry was known from the late C12th onwards, and a good example of an early C13th Uchelwr can be seen on the seal of Llywelyn ab Iorwerth, shown at right.



The tactics used by Welsh armies were formulated to suit the awkward terrain of Wales - this was often the main weapon against the invading English. Primarily, Welsh tactics consisted of ambushes and raids; success in war was measured by the amount of booty brought home. Giraldus Cambrensis notes that it was Welsh habit "to steal anything they can lay their hands on and to live on plunder, theft and robbery". Battle was preferred on marshy or broken ground, which favoured the Welsh's mobility over the clumsy, heavily armoured English knights. The initial onslaught was fierce, but if this did not break the enemy, the Welsh often lost heart. Their spirits were picked up by loud battle cries and war trumpets blowing (according to C12th sources).

The initial charge was a headlong assault accompanied by thrown javelins; this could be followed up by feigned flight (a common tactic amongst lightly armed and agile troops to lead their enemy into a trap). At the Battle of Lincoln in 1141, it was recorded that "On the flank there was a great multitude of Welshmen, better provided with daring than with arms" - as with most Celts of the medieval period, the Welsh relied upon agility and cunning as opposed to armour.

When this agility was forsaken, the Welsh were comprehensively beaten - at Orewin Bridge (1282) and Maes Moydog (1295), the Welsh stood in phalanxes of long spears, like the Scots, and were shot to pieces and charges by Edward I's combination of archers and horsemen.

Although large Welsh forces were capable of besieging castles (ie Builth), the siege tactics employed were not those of a feudal army - the Welsh did not really make use of war engines or other standard medieval techniques of storming a castle. The Welsh relied on keeping the defenders inside their castle (by a strong display of force outside the walls), and preventing supplies getting into the castle - this effectively starved the defenders out. Edward I countered this tactic by placing his newly constructed castles along the coastline - to allow easy supply routes from the sea (the Welsh had no significant navy). In Madog's Revolt, Caernavon Castle was stormed, but in this assault the Welsh came across the rock cut ditch which defended the partially constructed castle.

As each area of Wales was subdued, so the Anglo-Norman and (later) English lords used their Welsh subjects as auxiliary troops. The subdued men of south Wales were used against the north Welsh (the English being aided by the rivalry between Welsh princes); many Welshmen fought in Edward I's campaigns in Scotland (although their morale was usually very low); and Welsh troops were used in Ireland to fulfill a similar role to the Irish kerns and skirmishers. Later English armies also used Welsh troops - both for campaigns in France, and in the Wars of the Roses."

Daniel Mersey, 1997


"Archaeological evidence in Britain can trace the use of the longbow as far back as 3000 BC and its use was widespread throughout Europe. The longbow may not have had a continuous life of use and development from then until now. It seems unlikely that the Celts and Romans didn't now of its existence and used it on a small scale. Viking restrictions regulated the number of bows and arrows to be provided for peasants. In the year 633, Offrid, the son of Edwin, King of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow in battle with the Welsh and the Mercians. It's not certain the arrow was from a Welsh longbow but this is an early account of the use of the longbow by the Welsh archers in military action (see illustration<). The story promotes the belief which credits the Welsh with inventing and introducing the longbow into the British Isles. The acknowledged expert on the longbow, Robert Hardy, has written:"If the Welsh did not have bows yet, it cannot have been long before they adopted the weapon from the raiding Danes, but it is more than likely that, however they first came by it, the Welsh, among all the tribes in the British Isles, either retained the use of the bow from much earlier times, or invented it for themselves long before there could have been any chance for them to have learned of its use from the Scandinavians."

Until the 17th century there was no regular permanent army in Britain. Archers were part of temporary armies during battles throughout the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries. Post battle armies were disbanded and archers returned to their homes and communities. When required again an archer was conscripted or recruited by the feudal gentry.

The death of Offrid in 633 by an arrow from a (Welsh?) longbow precedes its widespread use hundreds of years later by the armies of the English and Norman rulers. There is reliable evidence of its military use by the Welsh in an ambush of invading Saxon horsemen in the Welsh mountains by Welsh longbow archers in 1054. The archers shot so accurately and strongly that the Saxons fled before they could throw their spears. At the siege of Abergavenny in 1182, Welsh archers, using longbows, pierced an oak door four inches thick with their arrows and William de Braose was hit by a Welsh arrow. This arrow went through his chainmail, into his thigh, through the saddle and penetrated the horse he was riding. King Edward 1 recognised that the Welsh archers excelled in the use of the longbow and this was developed by the use of this superb weapon by the Welsh during the military campaigns of the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries. South East Wales was where the best longbowmen were found but others were recruited from as far away as Pembroke. At the battle of Falkirk in July 1299 Edward's army was victorious principally because of the devastating effects of the Welsh longbow archers. The longbow made a significant debut at the battle of Crecy, France in 1346 (see illustration <) and changed the way battles were fought thereafter. Edward 111 called on his Welsh allies who contributed 3,000 of the 6,000 arches who faced the enemy knights. These well-trained Welsh bowmen could 'loose' about 10 arrows a minute. At any moment thousands of arrows would be hissing through the air, looking, as one observer at the time put it, 'so thick that it seemed like snow'. The longbow archers fired volleys of arrows, travelling like a "swarm of bees", rapidly making a decisive advantage over the French crossbow which took longer to 'draw' and slower to shoot arrows.

Achery was like a religion. The Welsh longbow archer played a critical role in the battle of Agincourt (see illustration >). On 25 October 1415, English and Welsh longbow archers under King Henry V completely destroyed the French cavalry at Agincourt .

The powerful longbow in the hands of a skilled and experienced archer stirred dread in the minds of their enemies. With a large draw weight (pull), a well made arrow could travel between 180 and 200 yards and pierce armour and chainmail. No wonder the longbow archer was feared by his enemies across Europe for three centuries. The feared Medieval longbow archers usually used a two-fingered draw on the string and if captured, the French soldiers would cut off these two drawing fingers. However in close combat it was common for longbow archers to taunt their enemy by holding up their two fingers."

[Hengest]

There is absoultely no evidence whatsoever for Berserkers being mentally, genetically or even narcotically deranged in anyway.
There is however a great deal of historical argument to support the idea that 'berserkers' (as so called in our concept of them) were in fact highly trained warrior monks recruited from the aristocracy. Their rarity and sparse numbers was probably due to their seclusion from the politics and namedropping that the sagas dealt in, these men were quite simply beyond the level of the usual gloryhungry warrior nobles. There are some excellent scholarly books about this in Scandinavian languages, and they are of no mean size either.
I suggest you look into what the academics argue before going into an area of history which is already fraught with misconceptions, assumptions and pseudo-history.
Sorry if I come across a bit too much, but I really have a passion for this area of history and people just never seem to care to get it right.

And Ranika, I'm surprised you buy that argument about the Welsh origin for the longbow. As you know the RomanoBritons used it very rarely whereas the early English did use it right into Viking times when their cousins were using it in invasion forces both having inherited its widespread military use from prehistory. Furthermore, the Norman patronage of the longbow (through the Danes, Welsh levies or the English population is arguable) did in fact continue into the early medieval era. However, all that said the Welsh did use it prolifically when documentation arises and since it did previously exist amongst them it is reasonable to argue that it was a weapon important to their armoury but to claim that it was they who introduced it to the English medieval army is an unbalanced but very popular theory. So I'll shut up.

[tnick777]

Why don't you help us then?

[WMS]

If you are referring to me my name is WMS, i just assume so as i proposed the longbow for the welsh, though you refer to a "Ranika" which has cause a wee little bit of confusion for me. I do not claim the welsh as the "inventors" or main proponents of the Longbow, only that it was a integral part of the culture in southern wales. Men learned to use the bow from the time they were old enough to work one, though they by no means used it as the English did. the welsh used it for short range attacks and ambushes, aiming their shots carefully so as to kill with each shot before closing in on their enemies with spears and swords, where as the English were the ones to take the Longbow and use it to full potential by bombarding their enemies from far away with barrages of armor piercing bodkin arrows. It is commonly believed that a longbowmen could average 10-12 shots per minute, meaning that at any given time as arrows were already raining down on you, there were about 3 or four more volleys of the same magnitude right behind. the longbow is not a distinctively welsh weapon, the japanese use the Yumi bow, and many eastern native american tribes used longbows, though the welsh at this time in history were the primary wielders of the longbow in britain. It was not for another couple hundred years that the longbow would REALLY catch on in England and become such a threat on medieval battle fields. I am only saying that the welsh longbow tradition goes back farther than any other in Britain(When i refer to England i mean just england, not all of britain). The saxons most definitly did not significantly integrate the longbow into their military system, nor the normans for that matter, in comparison with the english of the later medieval era's.

[tnick777]

I was talking to Hross