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Thread: RTW VS MTW in EB

  1. #41

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    It's a decision of the team and a great one I must say, mostly because it adds a lot of realism and has a less gamey feeling in it. For me, I love it and remember to always play with minimal user interface
    Gamey feeling, and cloned units were better. Less is more. Simple is better than complex. More readability. Generals use to implement dress codes so that a unit looks the same, both for cohesion and for them to understand who are his units. The unit commander also dressed in a particular way so that soldiers knew who was the commander and where he was.

  2. #42

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post

    One may see it from another angle. I think in reality the differences between troops originate not necessarily from different types and equipment, but from differences in experience, and skills gained through experience. I think there're many examples when theoretically inferior troops would beat the stronger, better armored etc. ones just because they have fought more in the past. So maybe the OP-chevrons in RTW convey this aspect of reality? A weak unit with golden chevrons can be turned in a superb unit - if we don't have an upgrade system for units (as it is in the Civilisation, for instance), why not to achieve it this way.
    Like others have pointed out that GOLD chevron was overpowered in RTW. Im sorry guys but that is ridiculous.

    First, you only get Gold chevron by caring about your units. That means retreating with elites even if you lose the battle, so you dont lose the gold chevron unit, so to replenish. That takes turns, and its not easy.
    2nd that is not OP, because that way like Jurand said, weaker units could actually get as strong as elite units. So meritocracy...

    In MTW2 gold chevrons becomes irrelevant, because its ony +1 attack per 3 chevrons. So why bother getting that unit back to base, its not worthy it. If your unit is gold chevron yet it sucks balls and will get killed anyways, then it doesnt matter. Better just recruit more. Like an arcade game. Just recruit more...



    I also value the system of MTW1, yes 1. Where every unit counted, and every unit had its own commander with its own traits. So if they were low loyalty, you would have a massive civil war in your empire. CA just seems to forget about good things they use to have, that were simple yet gave the game more substance.

  3. #43

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Kingofportugal can you explain more about the system in MTW1? I don't remember that in the game

  4. #44

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    You are forgetting that experience in M2TW:K gives a bonus to morale for each chevron. IMO the best experience system was the one from M2TW vanilla (not Kingdoms), where each 3 chevrons gave +1 attack and defense.

  5. #45
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    You are forgetting that experience in M2TW:K gives a bonus to morale for each chevron. IMO the best experience system was the one from M2TW vanilla (not Kingdoms), where each 3 chevrons gave +1 attack and defense.
    Ah, this I didn't know. Really? So 3 chevrons in M2TW:K mean +1att, +1 def, +3 morale?

  6. #46

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Ah, this I didn't know. Really? So 3 chevrons in M2TW:K mean +1att, +1 def, +3 morale?
    No, that would be in M2TW baseline, without Kingdoms expansion. In Kingdoms it would be the same but minus the +1def

  7. #47
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    No, that would be in M2TW baseline, without Kingdoms expansion. In Kingdoms it would be the same but minus the +1def
    Still it means that one golden chevron gives +3 att and +7 morale, right? What about the missile accuracy - each chevron adds to it, or only every third one?

  8. #48

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Still it means that one golden chevron gives +3 att and +7 morale, right? What about the missile accuracy - each chevron adds to it, or only every third one?
    How does morale and fatigue affect combat strength?

  9. #49

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    How does morale and fatigue affect combat strength?
    In EBII, hugely. Units which tire have lower attack and defense, units with lower morale rout sooner. With the deliberately thin margin between eager and afraid that most units have, morale is often decisive, especially when dealing with shocks like cavalry in the rear.

  10. #50

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Kingofportugal can you explain more about the system in MTW1? I don't remember that in the game
    So basically every unit you recruited had its own commander with its own traits. That commander you could assign a title to him as a governor of a region, and that would increase is loyalty, acumen or command traits. If your commanders were low in loyalty which could happen every time there was succession, your big empire could break in two and a civil war would start.

    I keep saying CA is getting dumbed down. MTW1 had great things and its still a game i play.

  11. #51

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellenikon View Post
    You are forgetting that experience in M2TW:K gives a bonus to morale for each chevron. IMO the best experience system was the one from M2TW vanilla (not Kingdoms), where each 3 chevrons gave +1 attack and defense.

    Oh really? So 1 or 2 chevrons does nothing, only 3 chevrons give you +1. So why bother having the two last gold chevrons... Makes a lot of sense... :/

    RTW1 gave you bonus for each chevron.

  12. #52

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    In EBII, hugely. Units which tire have lower attack and defense, units with lower morale rout sooner. With the deliberately thin margin between eager and afraid that most units have, morale is often decisive, especially when dealing with shocks like cavalry in the rear.
    Thanks for the answer!

  13. #53
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    A new voice concerning RTW vs. MTW (although not in relation to EB) has been voiced by Drtad on the youtube (maybe also on TWC, I don't know).

  14. #54

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by kingofportugal View Post
    RTW1 gave you bonus for each chevron.
    Which was arguably OP, given that there were no fewer than nine possible chevrons to attain, each providing +1 to attack, defence, and morale.

  15. #55

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    I've played EB1... a lot... more than I played EB2, so please take what I say whit a grain of salt.

    Looking back at both games, I can't help but think that Rome's limitations were a blessing in disguise. Historical accuracy had a laser focus on battles and campaign. Small differences in unit lethality, mass, and cohesion could make or break a unit and needed to be considered when recruiting and building an army. Government types, while standardized, had big ripple-down effects on building and recruitment options and gave a sense of your faction existing in a real world.

    Medieval 2 provided more opportunities for historical accuracy. Campaign management became slower, more involved, less engaging, more reliant on player RP. Battles had all the quirks of medieval 2 combat, with disciplined units behaving awkwardly. When I think back on EB2, it is as an artwork I look upon with awe and reverence of the craftsmanship involved, but unthinkable to pick up and handle for practical purposes.

    A lot has to do with age as well. I am 35 years old. I simply cannot set aside the time and engagement needed to master EB2 the way I did EB1. My favorite moments from EB1 were when a unit or reform "clicked" for me and I understood how to use them and how valuable they were. I am ashamed to admit I mostly get my total war fix from Three Kingdoms and Attila these days. Still I miss the openess and the sandbox of the early games.

    I recently played a game called Outer Wilds, and saw several reviewers wish they could erase their memory so they could play the game blind again. And I thought to myself, if I could only do that with one game, I would choose Rome: Total War and Europa Barbarorum 1.2

  16. #56

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Which was arguably OP, given that there were no fewer than nine possible chevrons to attain, each providing +1 to attack, defence, and morale.
    It was outrageously overpowered.

  17. #57

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    RTW BAI suiciding over trying to advance through a defended river ford with an army of equal strength vs M2TW BAI being possible to lure into doing this only if they have heavy advantage in shock troops, command stars and general traits, and still NOT putting their noble general unit into charge.
    TW BAIs in general aren't very good at self-preservation but RTW AI was notoriously suicidal unless it was heavily outmatched. To the point of this being predictably exploitable.

    I played the hell out of EB1, RS and Invasio Barbarorum. But I doubt I'll be going back to EB1 now even with the things RTW engine is doing better, like weapon lethality and shield modifiers. Population mechanics was better for the Ancient period in RTW, but the rest of the campaign feels more fleshed out in EB2. Including functional diplomacy and more involved reforms and cultures. EB2 money script allows me for playing an attrition war and benefit from building better economy because the opponents won't be getting armies out of thin air.

    I don't like sieges on either engine.
    Last edited by Satapatiš; January 27, 2021 at 08:19 AM.
    Furthermore, I believe that Rome must be destroyed.


  18. #58
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    EBII is "hostage" of M2TW/Kingdoms engine in many features.
    In RTW and its mods 2-4 AI controled armies that siege a settlement can build their own siege equipment such rams, ladders and siege towers making defence of a city a real chalenge. In M2TW engine only one AI controled army build siege equipment and if that is defeated the palyer simply waits to time goes by to win the battle. Also despite the fact that M2TW has hiden features of RTW those have never been activated like swiming units, multiple river crossing paths in the same battlefield and tunnles to undermind walls. Conclusion. M2TW/Kingdoms offers milion other aspects that RTW did not offer but the sense is that since RTW every TW game is worst.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  19. #59

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    EB2 is much better overall and you can actually have a sensible campaign that doesn't degenerate into 3 stacks of silvershields spam a turn and unending war with every neighbor until you inevitably quit until you forget about how every campaign goes and start a new one.

    There are some things that are not as good but it's mainly down to the engine. One thing I don't really like and that could be changed is the slowness of the unit animations. I remember asking about this before and the animation speed of, say, walking is fixed to the actual speed of the unit over the map. So if you want to slow down the unit for more realistic battles you have no option but to slow down the animation. I enjoy the more realistic battles but the units look like they are moving in water and it is immersion breaking for me. Even a 5-10% increase in speed would probably do it. In EB1 it was quite fun to zoom in and it looked like you were watching an actual battle. I never do this anymore on EB2 because it is disappointing.

  20. #60

    Default Re: RTW VS MTW in EB

    Quote Originally Posted by Camcolit View Post
    EB2 is much better overall and you can actually have a sensible campaign that doesn't degenerate into 3 stacks of silvershields spam a turn and unending war with every neighbor until you inevitably quit until you forget about how every campaign goes and start a new one.

    There are some things that are not as good but it's mainly down to the engine. One thing I don't really like and that could be changed is the slowness of the unit animations. I remember asking about this before and the animation speed of, say, walking is fixed to the actual speed of the unit over the map. So if you want to slow down the unit for more realistic battles you have no option but to slow down the animation. I enjoy the more realistic battles but the units look like they are moving in water and it is immersion breaking for me. Even a 5-10% increase in speed would probably do it. In EB1 it was quite fun to zoom in and it looked like you were watching an actual battle. I never do this anymore on EB2 because it is disappointing.
    You can increase the battle speed to 1.1x for a more realistic experience, I think it has to be done by holding the shift (or ctrl?) key while toggling the battle speed.

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