RTW VS MTW in EB

[kingofportugal]

This confirms my theory. RTW1 is the best Total War ever made. RTW had better aesthetics both in map and the units and the battle all looked better. Still I wont play it because EB2 has Remergent factions, improved diplomacy etc...

But i do feel nostalgic about EB1, it was really a masterpiece. My hope is that one day creative assembly realizes that both RTW1 and MTW1 only need a few improvements to be better than the latest releases they have made.

[Lusitanio]

I don't agree with you and I played both EB I an EBII.
EBI is a great game but some of the units aren't historically correct. Besides that, the aesthetics in EBII is better than EBI, the map, the detailed units (and the end of the battles of clones), the battle map looks better, it has the reemergent factions, a diplomacy that makes you feel its more real and not that everybody wants to destroy you, the scripte events, and I could go on forever...
Of course, there are something things that EBI does better, the battles still feel better, the units run in a more realistic way and other things but still EBII is better.
I think that EBII only needs some more improvements on the cities (making uniques cities) and both more units and more scripted events like rebellions for some more campaign flavour.

[QuintusSertorius]

There are unfortunately elements of the battle engine which were undoubtedly better in RTW (like individual weapon lethality), but on virtually every element of the campaign mechanics, M2TW is better.

[kingofportugal]

I don't agree with you and I played both EB I an EBII.
EBI is a great game but some of the units aren't historically correct. Besides that, the aesthetics in EBII is better than EBI, the map, the detailed units (and the end of the battles of clones), the battle map looks better, it has the reemergent factions, a diplomacy that makes you feel its more real and not that everybody wants to destroy you, the scripte events, and I could go on forever...
Of course, there are something things that EBI does better, the battles still feel better, the units run in a more realistic way and other things but still EBII is better.
I think that EBII only needs some more improvements on the cities (making uniques cities) and both more units and more scripted events like rebellions for some more campaign flavour.

I didnt mean to say that EB1 was better than EB2. Only to say that the engine of RTW1 made the things overall look much better. Just look at the attachment for example. I loved the clones army, it was so smooth. The battles were so smooth. And the unit experience was better too, the gold chevron was worthy to keep an eye on your elites and keep retraining them.

>I think that EBII only needs some more improvements on the cities (making uniques cities) and both more units and more scripted events like rebellions for some more campaign flavour.

Exactly. I would love to see huge rebellions as like in MTW1 when a heir to the throne just rises up with huge armies and attacks you, and you had no other choice than retreating, but i guess that is hard to implement in MTW2.

So far EB2 is my favourite mod.

[kingofportugal]

There are unfortunately elements of the battle engine which were undoubtedly better in RTW (like individual weapon lethality), but on virtually every element of the campaign mechanics, M2TW is better.

Exactly

[Hellenikon]

The unit replenishment system of M2TW is far beyond RTW or any later TW games. IMO is one of the main thing that helps immersion as your manpower resources aren't infinite, nor capped at some arbitrary number. Also units in RTW moved and disensaged with crazy speed, like automatons. Most of the things that are worse in M2TW is because they became bugged in the engine transition (like secondary weapon switching), but not because they were removed. Though i admit i prefered the interaction of shields/armour/defense in RTW with attacks.

[Genghis Skahn]

Most of the things that are worse in M2TW is because they became bugged in the engine transition (like secondary weapon switching), but not because they were removed.

I'd argue it's what they added which made the combat worse. One of those things was, in an attempt to nerf unit disengagement, to lower unit cohesion...But this simply had disastrous effects for infantry and cavalry alike(especially regarding infantry charges). Next was the "what you see is what you get" kills being more related to unit animations(if an animation is too slow, it will get interrupted by a faster one over and over) than RTW's was. Then there are the M2TW sieges. They're just ridiculous compared to RTW: the invisible space used on the perimeters of buildings and the mayhem during sieges this causes, plus that absolutely retarded mechanic whereby if an attacker with no siege towers or ladders can capture your gatehouse/walls merely by breaching the gates. Really? Just pushing into the gates far enough with cavalry captures the entire wall's gatehouse? Come on. The sheer tactical nuance of RTW sieges vs M2TW's sloppy attempts at creating "realism" is hard for me to move past. That's one of the main reasons why I virtually never fight sieges in M2TW; I just starve them out instead.

For these and many other buggy reasons, I'll always prefer RTW battles. Although EB1's CAI was just ridiculous.

[Lusitanio]

I didnt mean to say that EB1 was better than EB2. Only to say that the engine of RTW1 made the things overall look much better. Just look at the attachment for example. I loved the clones army, it was so smooth. The battles were so smooth. And the unit experience was better too, the gold chevron was worthy to keep an eye on your elites and keep retraining them.

>I think that EBII only needs some more improvements on the cities (making uniques cities) and both more units and more scripted events like rebellions for some more campaign flavour.

Exactly. I would love to see huge rebellions as like in MTW1 when a heir to the throne just rises up with huge armies and attacks you, and you had no other choice than retreating, but i guess that is hard to implement in MTW2.

So far EB2 is my favourite mod.

Have you played Roma surrectum III? If not try it to see how things could be done in EBII with the unique cities, and the Third Age total war mod too with the unique cities also.
About the unit experience, I understand what you mean but actually I like how the units experience is in EBII. Because in EBI you would have units with gold chevrons that were incredibly better than the normal ones. In EBII units with gold chevrons are still better than normal but that's not soo disproportional.

BTW: Nice to know that more portuguese people are playing this awesome mod

[QuintusSertorius]

Although EB1's CAI was just ridiculous.

This alone killed EB1 for me.

[jdofo]

Although EB1's CAI was just ridiculous.

This alone killed EB1 for me.

That's exactly the reason why I stopped playing EBI as well...

[Slaytaninc]

Though I can never seem to get myself to play any mod or game for more than a few turns, if I want to go back and play a modded ancient campaign in RTW I'd just go with Roma Surrectum over EB.

I do not care for De Bello Mundi however, which is the closest counter-part to EB2 this game has.

[Tactics Mayers]

The only thing RTW has over Med2 is the great battle system, siege battles and the lethality mechanic.
Doesn't medieval 2 allow you to perform tactics similar to this? https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...g-in-Formation
Otherwise, Medieval 2 beats RTW in everything else.

Who wants a never-ending war fighting endless stacks against the enemy over and over again while using the same units? I sure don't.

[Lyathon]

Another reason that killed rtw for me also was the performance of the campaign map. I can run it in med 2 at smooth 60 for most mods (with my half-decent laptop) whereas on a rtw map I am more likely to have anywhere within the range of 10-17 fps which really makes the whole experience more awkward and tedious.

I wish CA would let us have and change source code for the two games but I know this is likely never to happen

[BHL 20]

The endless huge stacks are not a feature of the RTW engine, they're a consequence of mods giving the AI ridiculously high money bonuses. Two RTW mods in particular abused this: EB and Roma Surrectum. The AI ends up with endless money and because it has a strong bias towards recruiting units over building, it will recruit every turn in every city. And then there's the fact EB has very large mercenary pools. With all that money, the AI is able to sometimes snap up 6-10 mercenary units in a turn, that's how you get stacks essentially appearing out of nowhere. It's just the most brute force way of adding difficulty, and I'm sure EB II would have the same problem if it had a money script like that.

EB and RS are not necessarily the objectively best mods for RTW, they're just the best branded ones. Branding when it comes to mods isn't always true. EB1 created a very strong brand as the most historically rigorous mod yet turned out to have several fantasy units.

[QuintusSertorius]

The money script in EBII is designed with a different end in mind (once we actually managed to get it working at all, it wasn't until 2.3). That being to stop the AI falling into a permanent debt spiral, which causes the CAI to go passive. Otherwise they only get modest support, and only if they are small for the most part. There's also a script which claws back big surpluses, to stop AI factions who can't spend for a period building up silly stockpiles of cash.

[athanaric]

The endless huge stacks are not a feature of the RTW engine, they're a consequence of mods giving the AI ridiculously high money bonuses. Two RTW mods in particular abused this: EB and Roma Surrectum. The AI ends up with endless money and because it has a strong bias towards recruiting units over building, it will recruit every turn in every city. And then there's the fact EB has very large mercenary pools. With all that money, the AI is able to sometimes snap up 6-10 mercenary units in a turn, that's how you get stacks essentially appearing out of nowhere. It's just the most brute force way of adding difficulty, and I'm sure EB II would have the same problem if it had a money script like that.

EB and RS are not necessarily the objectively best mods for RTW, they're just the best branded ones. Branding when it comes to mods isn't always true. EB1 created a very strong brand as the most historically rigorous mod yet turned out to have several fantasy units.

I can't speak for RS, having never played it, but IMO EB 1 (with RS environments ) certainly is one of the best RTW mods. It has a lot of great-looking units (irrespective of historicity), interesting reforms, and is very immersive and atmospheric (minus the CAI idiocy). It's hard to find another mod that compares in sheer scope (except EB 2 of course). Also, AFAIK it's still the, or one of the, most historically accurate RTW mods, relatively speaking.
That's not to say there aren't other interesting ones. My personal RTW favourite is Fourth Age Total War 3.3, which is certainly one of the most unique ones, going further than EB 1 when it comes to getting the most out of various mechanics, tech trees, and even diplomacy.

[BHL 20]

I can't speak for RS, having never played it, but IMO EB 1 (with RS environments ) certainly is one of the best RTW mods. It has a lot of great-looking units (irrespective of historicity), interesting reforms, and is very immersive and atmospheric (minus the CAI idiocy). It's hard to find another mod that compares in sheer scope (except EB 2 of course). Also, AFAIK it's still the, or one of the, most historically accurate RTW mods, relatively speaking.
That's not to say there aren't other interesting ones. My personal RTW favourite is Fourth Age Total War 3.3, which is certainly one of the most unique ones, going further than EB 1 when it comes to getting the most out of various mechanics, tech trees, and even diplomacy.

At the time EB1 was released there is no doubt it was overall the best RTW mod. Other mods at the time were not much more than graphical and balance overhauls of vanilla, RS and RTR were in their infancy, so EB1 can be given credit for setting the standard for future RTW modding.

[Slaytaninc]

I don't really like the population mechanic of RTW, but at least FATW did something interesting with it. They made it so that Dwarves and Elves can either choose between their own units and slow or negative growth in their starting settlements or allowing humans to settle instead.

[Cryoshakespeare]

I've always thought about EB in the context of totally different engines, especially Paradox's titles Europa Universalis IV and Crusader Kings II. Obviously, the issue with these titles is that they are abstracted to a degree where the historical detail is far less granular, and neither of them give the opportunity to play out battles, but still, they have some pretty interesting qualities that could make for a cool baseline. One good example in EUIV is the MEIOU and Taxes mod, which has a remarkably deep (if a bit abstract, again) economic and internal development/politics layer.

Obviously that's no reason to abandon M2TW, considering that the Total War franchise is a part of the identity of Europa Barbarorum. But sometimes, I wish, I could experience the same incredible historical detail and committed design in other game engines


^ As far as the actual topic of this discussion is concerned, yeah, battles in RTW were better (especially when your glorious drapanai charge with their 0.8 lethality falxes ), but honestly the campaign is just so much better overall in M2TW.

[Genghis Skahn]

Another superior aspect of M2TW that I'll concede is the scripting possibilities in the campaign script. EBII can have so many different types of scripted events because of this fact(eg. upcoming Central Asian invasions; Arevaci revolts etc. etc. etc.).