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Thread: Unit statistics sytem(s)

  1. #1
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    Default Unit statistics sytem(s)

    A thread to discuss unit statistics of the peculiar creatures of the warhammer world and how to represent them in the game engine. The aim is to compare formulas and overall thoughts rather than detailed discussions about specific units, except as examples to illustrate a point. I imagine that several of us that play the mod have some familiarity with modding and and have taken an interest in editing the export_descr_unit once or twice. Share your thoughts and ideas if you feel like it.
    Last edited by Maltacus; May 25, 2018 at 03:06 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    This is my own formula for warhammer world stats, inspired and somewhat based on PointBlank's Real Combat formula used in Stainless Steel and Third Age submods. I call it Real Crab People instead (crab people being my nickname for daemonettes). Quite unfinished but growing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Real Crab People 1.0.pdf  
    Last edited by Maltacus; May 25, 2018 at 03:13 AM.

  3. #3
    Crociato78's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maltacus View Post
    This is my own formula for warhammer world stats, inspired and somewhat based on PointBlank's Real Combat formula used in Stainless Steel and Third Age submods. I call it Real Crab People instead (crab people being my nickname for daemonettes). Quite unfinished but growing.

    It looks well done.


    I would make these changes (for now):


    Attack:
    short bow 4
    war bow 6
    longbow 8
    composite bow 8


    Moral:
    Levies 4
    Peasant Militia 6
    Militia 8
    Average 10


    The other values of attack of the types of spears, halberds etc ...?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    That would make for some quite powerful archers. How do you reason?

    The other values are taken directly from the RealCombat 1.8 documentation, lazy as I am I haven't added them yet in my own document. The biggest difference is that I am phasing out armor piercing for maces and such and instead add attack but also attack delay. That way armor piercing can be reserved for incendiary attacks, breath weapons, magical blades like the grave guards and so on. The results are very good in my opinion; whereas earlier non-ap-weapon units were distinctly weaker, they are now better against certain enemies and weaker against others.

  5. #5
    Crociato78's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    I do not think they are so powerful (not all), they seem reasonable values.


    Simple Bow:
    Peasant Militia 2 -1 = 1 attack (with your value)
    Peasant Militia 4 -1 = 3 attack (with my value)

    Honestly, archers with such a low value do not seem so realistic.


    Bow Composite:
    Heroic 4 +3 = 7 attack (with your value)
    Heroic 8 +3 = 11 attack (with my value)

    To be a heroic unit, the value 11 seems to me more suitable.


    This is only my opinion. For the rest you did a good job.


    For shooting weapons there would also have to be taken into account their accuracy.
    Depending on the level of the unit, a different accuracy.
    You could add it to your pdf file.
    Last edited by Crociato78; May 26, 2018 at 10:13 AM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    I do not think they are so powerful (not all), they seem reasonable values.
    ...
    Honestly, archers with such a low value do not seem so realistic.
    But how do you calculate that, how do you come to the conclusion? The RealCombat values are based on the creators estimations (version 1.8) of energy delivered and probability of penetrating armor if I recall correctly. I haven't looked it up myself as thoroughly but I find they work as I prefer in-game.

    Also, with an attack of 8 an average archers average shot would deal as much damage as the average hit of a bastard sword wielded with both hands. That seems like a lot to me but there are many ways to look at the stats and what they should really represent.

    I might add that many heroic units will still have large attack values still due to extra modifiers (quality bonus for bows, quality bonus for arrow tips, special material possibly), but not all.

    RealCombat submod can be found here, it has spawned a lot of interesting statistics discussions. I am the first to admit that I do not agree with everything in it but the reasoning in that mod is presented with a thoroughness and openness that is just admirable:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forum...nt-Compilation

    I have played with armies of archers with 7-8 total attack values a lot (elite elves in Third Age) and they are extremely powerful, pretty much owning the game with armor and such being of similar level as I presented above. The warhammer world has many units more armor in it but I still expect that archers with that kind of attack, all other things in my formula equal (like archers having area attack), would make other troop types of similar level outclassed.

    Accuracy in my system here is diversified as per BotETs original different values, I just haven't added a note about it. There are three or four levels of accuracy for most projectiles, I suppose I should add two or so more for the very best units. I'll look into it when getting to the elves.
    Last edited by Maltacus; May 27, 2018 at 01:20 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    About this stats:

    Ironguts bodyguard 10 units (5 and a officer), stat_pri_armour 13, 12, 0, metal, armour_ug_levels 4, 5
    Sabertusk 30 units (soldier null, 16, 16, 1.0) square insted of horde, stat_pri_armour 8, 6, 0, flesh, stat_cost 2
    Yhetee 10 units (5 and a officer), stat_health 8, stat_pri 22, 14, stat_pri_armour 12, 16
    Gorgers 20 units (soldier 11), stat_pri_armour 8, 10
    Gnoblars, no change
    Ogres 20 units (10 plus 2 officers), stat_pri_armour 9, 8, 2 , armour_ug_levels 2, 3
    Rhinox Riders (sabertooth_ogre) 10 units (5 and a officer) , stat_health 6, 6 , stat_pri_armour 13, 12, 2 , armour_ug_levels 4, 5
    Man Eaters 20 units (soldier 11) , stat_pri_armour 9, 10, 2 , armour_ug_levels 3, 4
    Butchers 10 units (5 and a officer) and a "little" nerf on ammunition from 80 to 30
    Hunters 20 units (soldier 11) , a nerf on ballista_bolt from 12 to 8 , stat_pri_armour 9, 10 , armour_ug_levels 2, 3
    Firebelly 10 units (5 and a officer) , 100 of range
    Ironguts 20 units (10 plus 2 officers) , stat_pri_armour 13, 10, 2 , armour_ug_levels 4, 5
    Leadbelchers stat_health 6, 6 , stat_sec_armour 10, 10

    If someone wants this changes, just copy/paste this for your export_descr_unit.txt
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ;#################################################################
    ;######################### Ogre Kingdoms ########################
    ;#################################################################

    type Ironguts body
    dictionary Ironguts_body
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier irongut, 5, 0, 40
    officer irongut_ban
    attributes sea_faring, very_hardy, can_withdraw, mercenary_unit, general_unit
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 6, 0
    stat_pri 18, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr area, launching, ap
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 13, 12, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 26, impetuous, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 4500, 300, 100, 100, 4500, 1, 4500
    armour_ug_levels 4, 5
    armour_ug_models irongut
    ownership slave, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type sabertusk
    dictionary sabertusk
    category cavalry
    class light
    voice_type General
    ;accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction main_cavalry
    banner holy crusade_cavalry
    soldier null, 16, 16, 1.0
    mount sabertusk
    attributes sea_faring, very_hardy, free_upkeep_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.3
    formation 2.25, 2.25, 3.5, 3.5, 6, square
    stat_health 3, 3
    stat_pri 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 12, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 8, 6, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 8, 6, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, -1, -2, -1
    stat_mental 18, impetuous, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 2, 1800, 200, 45, 35, 1800, 4, 75
    armour_ug_levels 1
    armour_ug_models null
    ownership ogres, slave
    era 0 ogres, slave
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type Yhetee
    dictionary Yhetee
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Troll
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier yhetee, 5, 0, 45
    officer yhetee
    attributes sea_faring, very_hardy, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, mercenary_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.2
    formation 4, 4, 8, 8, 2, square
    stat_health 8, 0
    stat_pri 22, 14, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr launching, area
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 12, 16, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 6, 6, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
    stat_mental 18, impetuous, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 5, 4200, 500, 100, 100, 4200, 2, 400
    armour_ug_levels 4
    armour_ug_models yhetee
    ownership ogres, slave
    era 0 ogres, slave
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type gorgers
    dictionary gorgers
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Troll
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier gorger, 11, 0, 45
    attributes sea_faring, can_swim, very_hardy, frighten_foot, frighten_mounted, mercenary_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.1
    formation 4, 4, 8, 8, 2, square
    stat_health 6, 0
    stat_pri 18, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, blunt, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr launching, area
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 8, 10, 0, flesh
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, 1, 0
    stat_mental 24, impetuous, untrained, lock_moral
    stat_charge_dist 20
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 3500, 300, 100, 100, 3500, 1, 100
    armour_ug_levels 4
    armour_ug_models gorger
    ownership ogres, slave
    era 0 ogres, slave
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type gnoblar
    dictionary gnoblar
    category infantry
    class skirmish
    voice_type Heavy
    accent Goblins
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier gnoblar, 80, 0, 0.6
    attributes sea_faring, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, cannot_skirmish, hide_long_grass, hide_forest
    move_speed_mod 1.1
    formation 1, 1, 2, 2, 10, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 1, 0, Net, 40, 2, thrown, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr thrown, launching, area
    stat_sec 2, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, sword, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 1, 2, 2, leather
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, 1, -2, -1
    stat_mental 7, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 550, 75, 100, 100, 550, 4, 35
    armour_ug_levels 1, 2
    armour_ug_models gnoblar
    ownership ogres, slave
    era 0 ogres, slave
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 40

    type Ogres
    dictionary Ogres
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier ogres, 10, 0, 30
    officer ogrebanner
    officer bruiser
    attributes sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, warcry, mercenary_unit
    move_speed_mod 1.1
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 6, 0
    stat_pri 16, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr area, launching
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 9, 8, 2, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 18, impetuous, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 2500, 300, 100, 100, 2500, 4, 500
    armour_ug_levels 2, 3
    armour_ug_models ogres
    ownership hre, slave, portugal, kalmar_union, spain, scotland, sicily, milan, venice, saxons, france, russia, poland, turks, moors, byzantium, ogres
    era 0 ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type sabertooth ogre
    dictionary sabertooth_ogre
    category cavalry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction main_cavalry
    banner holy crusade_cavalry
    soldier Ogre_riders, 5, 0, 8
    officer Ogre_riders
    mount mount_rhinox
    attributes sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, mercenary_unit
    move_speed_mod 0.9
    formation 3.5, 3.5, 4, 4, 2, square
    stat_health 6, 6
    stat_pri 20, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr area, ap, launching
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 13, 12, 2, metal
    stat_sec_armour 10, 15, metal
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 2, -5, 0
    stat_mental 18, impetuous, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 40
    stat_fire_delay 18
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 5, 6800, 400, 100, 100, 6800, 1, 400
    armour_ug_levels 4, 5
    armour_ug_models Ogre_riders
    ownership ogres, slave
    era 0 ogres, slave
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 10

    type man eaters
    dictionary man_eaters
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier maneaters, 11, 0, 35
    ;officer tyrant
    attributes sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, warcry, mercenary_unit
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 6, 0
    stat_pri 18, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr area, launching
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 9, 10, 2, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 22, impetuous, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 3500, 300, 100, 100, 3500, 2, 200
    armour_ug_levels 3, 4
    armour_ug_models maneaters
    ownership hre, slave, portugal, kalmar_union, spain, scotland, sicily, milan, venice, saxons, france, russia, poland, turks, moors, byzantium, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type butchers
    dictionary butchers
    category infantry
    class missile
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier butcher, 5, 0, 35
    officer butcher
    attributes sea_faring, very_hardy, can_withdraw, command, mercenary_unit, cannot_skirmish, incendiary
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 8, 0
    stat_pri 4, 1, butcher_projectile, 80, 30, missile, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr launching
    stat_sec 18, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr area, launching
    stat_pri_armour 10, 10, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 28, impetuous, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 3500, 400, 100, 100, 3500, 2, 200
    armour_ug_levels 2
    armour_ug_models butcher
    ownership slave, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type hunters
    dictionary hunters
    category infantry
    class missile
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier hunter, 11, 0, 35
    attributes sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, mercenary_unit, extreme_range, cannot_skirmish
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 6, 0
    stat_pri 8, 0, ballista_bolt, 170, 25, siege_missile, artillery_mechanical, piercing, none, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr launching, bp
    stat_sec 16, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr spear, launching
    stat_pri_armour 9, 10, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 18, impetuous, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 4500, 400, 100, 100, 4500, 2, 200
    armour_ug_levels 2, 3
    armour_ug_models hunter
    ownership slave, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type firebelly
    dictionary firebelly
    category infantry
    class missile
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier firebelly, 5, 0, 35
    officer firebelly
    attributes sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, command, mercenary_unit, cannot_skirmish, incendiary
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 8, 0
    stat_pri 15, 4, fire_mag_fireball, 110, 12, missile, missile_mechanical, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr area, bp
    stat_sec 18, 15, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr area, ap, launching
    stat_pri_armour 10, 10, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 28, impetuous, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 5500, 500, 100, 100, 5500, 1, 200
    armour_ug_levels 2
    armour_ug_models firebelly
    ownership slave, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type Ironguts
    dictionary Ironguts
    category infantry
    class heavy
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction banner_ogres
    banner holy crusade
    soldier irongut, 10, 0, 40
    officer irongut_ban
    officer irongut
    attributes sea_faring, hardy, can_withdraw, warcry, mercenary_unit
    formation 3.0, 3.0, 4, 4, 6, square
    stat_health 6, 0
    stat_pri 18, 12, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_pri_attr area, launching, ap
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 13, 10, 2, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 1
    stat_ground 0, 0, -4, -2
    stat_mental 26, impetuous, trained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay 0
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 5, 6000, 400, 100, 100, 5500, 2, 200
    armour_ug_levels 4, 5
    armour_ug_models irongut
    ownership slave, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 20

    type lead belcher
    dictionary lead_belcher
    category cavalry
    class missile
    voice_type General
    accent Ogrekingdom
    banner faction main_missile
    banner holy crusade
    soldier null, 9, 3, 1
    mounted_engine elephant_rocket_launcher
    mount lead_belcher
    attributes sea_faring, can_withdraw, cannot_skirmish, gunpowder_unit, artillery, cannon, mercenary_unit
    move_speed_mod 0.9
    formation 3, 3, 5, 5, 1, horde
    stat_health 6, 6
    stat_pri 18, 12, lead_belcher_cannon, 120, 16, siege_missile, artillery_gunpowder, blunt, none, 1000, 1
    stat_pri_attr ap
    stat_sec 16, 10, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, slashing, axe, 25, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 10, 0, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 10, 10, flesh
    stat_heat 0
    stat_ground 0, -1, -1, -1
    stat_mental 20, normal, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 40
    stat_fire_delay 1000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 4, 6000, 500, 100, 100, 6000, 2, 1000
    armour_ug_levels 1
    armour_ug_models null
    ownership slave, ogres
    era 0 slave, ogres
    info_pic_dir merc
    recruit_priority_offset 30
    Last edited by Jivaro; June 07, 2018 at 04:11 AM.
    Benfiquista Budista Comunista

  8. #8

    Default Re: Unit statistics sytem(s)

    Cheers!

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