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Thread: Historical Discussion

  1. #1
    'Gunny's Avatar Überrock über alles
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    Default Historical Discussion

    I'd like to have a small thread dedicated to historical discussion, namely in terms of how the mod addresses its goal of period authenticity. Furthermore I'd like to use this thread as an early dumping ground for determining unit looks and roster changes. I'm probably going to start with an illustration dump.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Thx. your work Gunny !

  3. #3
    'Gunny's Avatar Überrock über alles
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    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  4. #4

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Noice.

    Say, did you get the free Osprey eBook on the Viking warriors vs. The Anglo-Saxon from total war access? I haven't read everything in it, but it seems like an interesting read.

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    'Gunny's Avatar Überrock über alles
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    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Yep. The Vikings, Saxons, Normans book. I'd post some pictures here but if memory serves that is a no-no. It definitely is a decent read and confirms my suspicions about the overabundance of mail.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Hi there Gunny! Congrats for the mod!

    This link here has some relative information of english medieval armour: http://world4.eu/armour-england/. According to it, despite the prevalence of mail armor, the anglo-saxons and normans also used scale armour in some quantity.

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    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    That's an interesting read. Though I must admit I think at least some of the art that seems to depict scale may well be an artists rendition of chain. That said with the art direction we are going is one of maximum variation so based on that some of the highest tier English troops may well have a scale coat mixed in there. Something to note is that we have recently obtained permissions from Robb Stark to utilize some of his variation work, so expect an update in the near future that changes unit appearance.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Yeah, I agree that sometimes the scale shown in those illustrations might just be an odd way to represent mail. The Bayeux Tapestry for instance is filled with this kind of representantion of mail. But, the article suggests that there are atleast one academic that states that scale was also used, albeit in fewer numbers.

    That's some great news about Roob Stark, I really like his variation mods. Have you guys also had the chance to check out the shields variation mod by dontfearme22?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    I'm getting a feel for things since I don't have the game yet and am referring to the information available.

    I'll post illustration work in the future. I'd recommend in your first post gunny to have drop-down (spoilers) for each of the following: Anglo-Saxon / Welsh / Scottish / Irish / Viking / Norman. Obviously in game you have a different arrangement with some of the hybrid kinds of cultures but that can be inferred later (Just draw on Anglo-Saxon and Viking references for Great Viking Army, draw on Viking and Irish for the Norse-Irish).

    Regarding quilted/padded armor: http://sagy.vikingove.cz/introductio...or-mail-armor/ offers a compelling case for how this might be. There is already quilted/padded armor ingame, and even in the absence of information I'd be remiss to suggest removing it. But the absence of as reliable information on it for this period as compared to the aketon in the high medieval or linothorax in the past makes me want to find justification and legitimacy for it. Same as with the deal of scale armor, which I will look into.

    The above link sold me on the idea that a lot of the hemmed Carolingian/Ottonian tunics I've seen (contemporaries more or less to ToB) are actually some kind of padded armor. Just probably not quite the naked quilting of the aketon, rather thick felt or a lot of layers without padding.

    http://sagy.vikingove.cz/wp-content/...oman-zbroj.jpg - you can see a clearly different style to the interior of that tunic on the left. One which looks like vertical quilting.

    http://sagy.vikingove.cz/wp-content/...15/02/matt.jpg - the vendel era has a lot of these foldover kaftans, some of which have the quilted decoration. I've already made them in FOTE and I have to test and see if they can be used with ToB heads. If they cannot I will look into the argument of using ToB and Attila heads side by side. This is possible without graphical issues, you just have to set up the VMD right. Basically you have one 'dude' in the VMD who will be ToB heads and ToB armor, and one 'dude' in the VMD who is Attila heads and attila armors. You can then make it 3 TOB dudes to 1 Attila dude or vice versa or 3 ToB dudes and 2 Attila or vice versa.

    There's a saga referencing King Olaf recieving a gift of 13 coats of padded reindeer hide. It's from some magical Laplander so it's clearly mythological but we can extrapolate the idea of padded hide is not unknown. At a minimum for wearing with cold weather, and taken into battle such an ersatz attire would be more helpful than a single layer tunic.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Interesting read, I dont think there is a really any models for TOB or Attila that recreate their idea on the padded/layered tunics though. Someone would probably have to create a custom model to fit the look of those pictures you linked.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    The good thing about simple long (and short) sleeve tunics is the canvas of persian_tunic model in Attila is a good basis for it, as seen in fote with many of my mail/scale armors being largely based on it.



    The belt is not accurate, I'd have to see about what a viking (or vendel era at the earliest) belt looks like and if there is a suitable model I can bs a version of that belt on, or use to represent said belt.

    Also confirmation for Saxon Scale http://thethegns.blogspot.com/2011/1...le-armour.html - don't think the skirt is pteruges since I was thinking-emoji at that but the author already deals with the question and addresses it as a flowing tunic. It is a hundred years plus prior to ToB but I think ToB uses a lot of helmets from years prior to ToB. Indeed, they already have the Vendel era helmets which were contemporary to this anglo-saxon warrior. Hell they even have the 2nd century Deir el-medina(!) which I assume is for the irish/welsh to depict some long-ago stolen helmet passed down through the generations.
    Last edited by Ahiga; June 02, 2018 at 03:58 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Wow, really enjoy your sources. Have you been able to take a look at the TOB models yet? They actually port over to attila just fine, maybe someone can let you take a look at them

    Anyways there is a pretty good padded model that does a good job of capturing the puffed up look of having a lot of layers. Maybe you could retexture that for the non kaftan padded armor


  13. #13

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    Yeah, good eye Athos, it was a pretty good looking model. If not for the news about the startpos and recruitment issues among other things I was hoping someone (Not necessarily us) would do a 1066 mod as well as a Baron's war Mod, where some of those quilted outfits would shine. In general I'm not a stickler for extreme accuracy and it's more about inspiration and influence than total imitation, since total imitation and accuracy is already kind of thrown out the window by limitations of the game (such as spearmen and swordsmen arbitrarily divided into two units).

    I do agree with Gunny for instance on the overabundance of mail issue. One good solution would be to use the VMD's randomness to depict not 100% armor on certain units. So perhaps West Seax late Era Royal bodyguard, Mailed Thegns, Royal Huscarls and Mailed Long Axemen are 100% armored, but the mailed spears and seaxes are 50% or 75%.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Historical Discussion

    This game is way too stripped down to make it worth modding, just gonna use TOB as spare parts for attila mods

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