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Thread: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

  1. #61
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    It is a bad game. I have only 18 hours in it yet I already feel meh about it.

    Most critics are missing the point imo. It is not a matter of game intentionally left with mininal features to introduces DLC. The game is "full". The issue is how it was developed and the design philosophy that lead to this title. In short Imperator : Rome feels horribly similar to Europa Universalis : Rome (released in 2008) and more broadly to pre-CK2 titles from Paradox.

    You are constantly dealing with metrics, gameplay limitations, etc. To the point that you hardly feel like leading a kingdom, city-state, tribal confederation. That is the main issue period. Just like CA with Total War, Paradox is also facing the limits of its design philosophy that mostly attempted to create strategic dilemma by limiting the player option. For example as the greatest power of the Hellenic World I was limited to just 5 diplomatic relations. Just 5 ! An other example is the shallow building system. There is only 4 building types : one to improve tax, one to improve manpower, one to raise the population and the fortification. You can spam multiple levels of each building type in a city but there is an overall limitation based on the civic population. This makes the system very limiting. You can not build a massive fort in a region with little population. The granary building trees has no value since you need to already have a big population in order to build it and have other buildings in a city.

    I could continue this list but I am sure everybody gets the picture. None of these issue would be solve by a DLC since the problem come from the design philosophy itself. At best DLCs would only get the intention elsewhere as it did in EUIV and CK2 during the last years while the core experience was emptied. Mostly "for balance"

    On a small note it is very disappointing to set the as the Fourth Diadochi War is about to start but prevents you from actually conquer your rival Diadochi kingdoms through the aggressive expansion mechanics. As Antigonos, just seizing Mesopotamia and Assyria from Seleucos gives you an insane aggressive expansion which cause repeated uprising in your kingdom for the next 50/100 in game years.

  2. #62
    Manuel I Komnenos's Avatar Rex Regum
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    ^I agree with most of your remarks, I would also add that while the game is limiting in some cases, in some others it gives you too great a power; for example, say you're Bactria, you can Hellenize your population culturally and religiously in a matter of a few decades assuming you have skilled governors. And that's wrong on so many levels. Firstly, you're basically forced to Hellenize because of the massive happiness penalty you receive from the local population. Why should a Bactrian or a Syrian hate the Macedonians, or the Greeks? Population mechanics ought to be more complex, people should be happy or angry because of more complex things, and not because they are being ruled by a different ethnicity. That's a mechanic that would make more sense in Victoria, rather than for this timeframe.

    Moreover, it misses a great opportunity to portray recruitment mechanics, which was such an interesting and important factor. The Ptolemies and the Seleukids valued their phalanx, which was recruited from soldiers of Greco-Macedonian ancestry. It's important to monitor how many these people are, how they are treated, and whether there's an immigration wave from Macedon in Greece (i.e. mechanics to lure people from that area to emigrate in Syria, for example). Similarly, the Seleukids valued greatly their Median cavalry, and the Greco-Bactrians their local cavalry. There's no mechanic of recruiting good cavalry from specifically the Medes, for example. It's all generic; as long as you have the manpower, you can pretty much recruit anything, anywhere, in whatever quantity you want.

    Finally, the game is not polished at all. I was checking the character setup while modding, and there's 200 characters. All the rest are random, generated by the AI. I bet you could come up with 50-60 characters for the Seleukids alone for that era based on information we have. And there's even whole states which have random rulers. To my surprise, I discovered that there were not even models/sprites for armies containing only cavalry or elephants, which can't really be justified on the basis of flavor arriving in DLCs. You got like 6 different units and you cannot make 6 different models? Really?

    Anyway, not to be completely negative; the map is amazing and it makes for a great setting for conquest. If they address the problems, add the flavor and correct the mechanics, there's going to be significant potential.
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  3. #63
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Paradox do not make polished basic games and there is little or no reasons for them to do so. They are unabashed about already developing free updates even before the basic game is release. Whether or not players like it or not, when you buy the base game that uses the DLC model, you are essentially unpaid beta tester.

    Personally I also had suspicions that the game promised to be a catch all of other games. It is like every movie filled with big star names that fail. There is only so much screen time for each actor. Trying to put different systems together that will work isn't easy. I am anticipating 1 or 2 years of DLCs to actually work out of the issues.
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  4. #64

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    I'm getting towards 70 hours played so far and I'm loving it. I can only really report on my experience of the game. Doesn't feel bare bones

    Becuase it's a sequel of sorts to EU Rome it's neither CK2 or EU4 but it's still viewed through the prism of those recent made games. EU Rome was from 2008 and not as well played as those titles so it's fairly understandable it's compared to those. Whether it's fair to judge a game that's been out for less than 2 weeks with games that have had several years developement.

    Game definately needs balancing. I'm drowning in oratory and religious points quite literaly. I made a concious effort this run to not manually convert and assimilate pops this run through , just using the governor plocies instead. I can understand where the critism of the "mana" mechanic is coming from but like this it's far better.
    Good to see what's coming in the new update in June. The release version was locked down in Febuary. So looking forward to the changes to be released in June.

    Interestingly enough Darren said in his video he got 300 hours. Which is easy enough to do if you like the time period. I've got 2300 in Rome 2 and I can see no reason why I wouldn't expect to get those sort of hours out of this.

    This is the first Paradox game I've had a release and I'm impressed at how good it is. Imperator Rome at release is a far better beast than Rome 2 was at release those years ago it just doesn't compare. Of course some people might not like a wargame like this at heart

  5. #65

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    agree with Darren on what seems to be his 3 main points: yes, the game does feel a lot like EU: Rome; yes, there is lots of 'sameness' in features and mechanics that doesn't differentiate between cultures (and this is more apparent to TW players who are used to at least some variety in unit rosters, for example); despite the first two points, i too found the game to be enjoyable and addictive. more work on the game by the devs, in terms of both improving and expanding whats there already, would certainly be welcome.

    atm my main concern is that there still seems to be a fair amount of stability related issues: i cant proceed with the save of my 'last stand of thebes' playthrough. game simply freezes on 1st of June. also had a crash after about 2.5 hours of play as Bithynia. anyone else experiencing crashes after long sessions? how long does your session normally last? hope these will get sorted in the patches and alongside the upcoming DLCs.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    @ Sarkiss yes I'm missing Hastatii and not having Triarii just as a millitary tradition. I agree with Manual I Komnenos about area of recruitment. I've been spoilt by Europa Barbarorum, Rome Total Realism and all the other lovely mods. Though these both issues could be solved by modding. Good to see Magnar is alrerady making mods for Imperator. So with TW modders getting involved in modding it I'm sure something good will be produced.

    As for crashing. I haven't had any. The only performance issue I have is the game locking up for a couple of seconds when declaring war or having a new leader elected. No crashes though. I'm running patch 1.01 I haven't opted into the 1.02 beta yet.
    Typical session is around 3-5 hours+ or till I need to go for a toilet break.

    Just a heads up that Imperator Dev Diaries are every monday. Here's the latest one on some of the forth features coming in Pompey 1.1 patch
    https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/imperator-development-diary-6th-of-may-2019.1174793/

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Arch Warhammer has been on a tear...



    The quotes of PDS makes confirmed what I have been saying about Paradox for some time. The base game is a platform that they plan to build over time. You are honestly better off waiting at least a year after release to buy their games.
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  8. #68
    pajomife's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Quote Originally Posted by Garensterz View Post
    I now have the reason to stop buying those childish historical games made from CA. Hello to proper economy, population, and diplomacy management. And goodbye to "Total Crap War".
    At present time rome 2 is much deeper game than that empty shell that is Imperator.

  9. #69
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    ^I agree with most of your remarks, I would also add that while the game is limiting in some cases, in some others it gives you too great a power; for example, say you're Bactria, you can Hellenize your population culturally and religiously in a matter of a few decades assuming you have skilled governors. And that's wrong on so many levels. Firstly, you're basically forced to Hellenize because of the massive happiness penalty you receive from the local population. Why should a Bactrian or a Syrian hate the Macedonians, or the Greeks? Population mechanics ought to be more complex, people should be happy or angry because of more complex things, and not because they are being ruled by a different ethnicity. That's a mechanic that would make more sense in Victoria, rather than for this timeframe.

    Moreover, it misses a great opportunity to portray recruitment mechanics, which was such an interesting and important factor. The Ptolemies and the Seleukids valued their phalanx, which was recruited from soldiers of Greco-Macedonian ancestry. It's important to monitor how many these people are, how they are treated, and whether there's an immigration wave from Macedon in Greece (i.e. mechanics to lure people from that area to emigrate in Syria, for example). Similarly, the Seleukids valued greatly their Median cavalry, and the Greco-Bactrians their local cavalry. There's no mechanic of recruiting good cavalry from specifically the Medes, for example. It's all generic; as long as you have the manpower, you can pretty much recruit anything, anywhere, in whatever quantity you want.

    Finally, the game is not polished at all. I was checking the character setup while modding, and there's 200 characters. All the rest are random, generated by the AI. I bet you could come up with 50-60 characters for the Seleukids alone for that era based on information we have. And there's even whole states which have random rulers. To my surprise, I discovered that there were not even models/sprites for armies containing only cavalry or elephants, which can't really be justified on the basis of flavor arriving in DLCs. You got like 6 different units and you cannot make 6 different models? Really?

    Anyway, not to be completely negative; the map is amazing and it makes for a great setting for conquest. If they address the problems, add the flavor and correct the mechanics, there's going to be significant potential.
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  10. #70

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Arch Warhammer has been on a tear...



    The quotes of PDS makes confirmed what I have been saying about Paradox for some time. The base game is a platform that they plan to build over time. You are honestly better off waiting at least a year after release to buy their games.
    Stellaris has it's 3 year anniversary this weekend (with deals), and I'm still waiting for a meaningful trade/diplomacy system. One year is being generous.

    As for Imperator, I don't think this will ever going to be a good game.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Quote Originally Posted by Candy_Licker View Post
    Stellaris has it's 3 year anniversary this weekend (with deals), and I'm still waiting for a meaningful trade/diplomacy system. One year is being generous.

    As for Imperator, I don't think this will ever going to be a good game.
    LOL, I meant it that one should not consider it until one year. HOI4 wasn't worth buying until after Waking the Tiger (2 years).
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  12. #72
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    In this game, will you get trade offers on turn 1 from obscure tribes beyond the end of the know worlds like in EU: Rome? As Sparta, will I be asked to trade hunting dogs with the Picts or something like that?
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  13. #73

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    In this game, will you get trade offers on turn 1 from obscure tribes beyond the end of the know worlds like in EU: Rome? As Sparta, will I be asked to trade hunting dogs with the Picts or something like that?
    No they have got to be within your diplomatic range. Of which you can increase with technology.

    ----

    Heads up there's going to be some significant changes in regard to what some people would call "mana" or monarch points in the game. Johan the game director just posted this Sunday evening

    "Hi everyone, lets continue talking about currencies and how to balance games, and Imperator in particular.

    So the design we’ve been working on right now have been to remove the four types of monarch power from the game, and replace their costs with other impacts, and also introduce a new currency which we call Political Influence.

    Political Influence is gained by how loyal your characters in your government is, so that if all 8 are 100% loyal, you gain a maximum amount, and if all are at 0% loyal, you gain nothing. Then of course there are other aspects that impact how much influence you get. If your Co-Ruler is disloyal, or you are in a deficit you will get far less.

    This will make it not just an easy choice of who to pick for a government position, by just picking whoever had the highest ability in the relevant field, but you also have to consider how loyal there are, so you can do certain actions.

    Now of course, not everything has been changed from using monarch power, but only a few actions will be changed to use political influence, but the rest will be using tyranny, stability, aggressive expansion, gold, manpower or war-exhaustion.

    Some examples of price changes includes the following.

    • Getting an Invention will cost 4 months of income.
    • Enacting a Law costs some political influence, but also reduces stability by 25.
    • Fabricating a Claim costs some upfront Aggressive Expansion
    • Endorsing a Party is merely a small hit on stability and tyranny.

    Military Traditions would work entirely differently, in that you would unlock a new slot every 20 years. We talked about tying it to tech, but that would put us in the same situation as ideas were in EU4, that it would hurt barbarians way too much. The 20 year value may change as we keep testing the game though.

    Now while we have talked about some aspects being moved to being a nudge over time like stability and legitimacy, some aspects like promotion, assimilation and conversion of pops will still be instant as of now. It simply is not feasible to rework that and still have a patch out in a reasonable timeframe.

    Cheers everyone, and tomorrow I’ll go deep into more flavor and fun in a new development diary.. "

    https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...esign.1181893/

    Follows on from his post from yesterday regarding "Abstract currencies, agent_mechanics, realistic currencies"

    https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ncies.1181717/

    Remains to be seen if this is for the incoming patch 1.1 next month. Personally I think these chanegs are too late for that. I would sooner have stable tested patches rather than something rushed out as soon as.

  14. #74
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    I gave a quick look to Paradox road map for Imperator Rome.

    In all honesty, I feel like their planned change will only make things worse. I doubt they can replace the mana system of the game with something different in mere weeks given how central mana is in IR. With the examples given by Paradox, it seems like the devs are taking the CA road of making life more difficult for the player and ultimately punish him rather than actually improving the gameplay to make the title more interesting and fun.

    I am not optimistic about the game future.

  15. #75
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Populists, populists everywhere!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    RIP Paradox Interactive. They have finally fully submitted to the greed.
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  17. #77

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    RIP Paradox Interactive. They have finally fully submitted to the greed.
    It does indeed seem like that is the case. Hearts of Iron IV and Stellaris already seemed to go into a more "sell DLC, fix later" kind of approach, but this game is literally made to sell expansions later on.

    Knowing me, I will probably buy the game and it's expansions later in a sale, because they do make very good games, but I'm very disappointed nonetheless.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    The beta of the Pompey 1.1 patch is going to be on us pretty soon. So we can get our grubby mits on it before it is released in full on the 26th of this month

    Full patch notes contained within link
    https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-2019.1191244/

    The beta is live as of today.
    Just some small changes to the patch log
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SBAVaa4MRE
    Last edited by herne_the _hunter; June 19, 2019 at 08:31 AM.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Imperator: Rome - new Paradox title

    Soon as Pompey had it's official release Pdx released a beta for Ciscero.
    Patch notes
    https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...notes.1197855/

    Essentially it's a work in progress with place holder art and text.

    For replacing the placeholder art use Icons for 1.2 mod
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1792065595

    There's an update for it to be released this week as it doesn't include bug fixes from 1.1 as indeed they will be updating it from here to Spetember.

    Alternatively you could use the Ciscero 1.2 fixmod in the meantime
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1784028592

    With the new mechanics and the icons mod I can't go back to using Pompey as it's very useable

    ---
    Mean while in other news....

    Magnar has released a version of Vae Victis for the Ciscero beta as he already has a version for Pompey.
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1793840377
    Last edited by herne_the _hunter; July 07, 2019 at 05:37 AM.

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