Armenian Subtleties

[Sarkiss]

Following the dynastic inconsistencies of Armenia (see below), here is a brief breakdown of the ruling families of the Armenian kingdoms.


Hayastan (Greater Armenia)

• Capital – Yervandashat (Orontosata), built by Yervand IV
• Ruler – Yervand IV/the Last Yervanduni (Orontes IV Orontid), circa 212 - 200 BC. Brother, Mithras, the High Priest of the temple of the Sun and of the Moon at Armavir.

Yervand IV has been killed by his own soldiers in war with Artashes/Artaxias in 200 BC. Artashes will go on to establish Artashesyan/Artaxiad dynasty from 189 BC, though he too was a scion of the powerful Yervanduni dynasty.

Greater Armenia should be fully independent (no tribute to Seleukids) as it seems that it is this independent status that led to Seleukid indirect intervention: many scholars assume that it was Seleukid machinations and gold that led to revolt by Artashes (and Zareh/Zariadres in Tsopk/Sophene) and overthrow of Yervand IV.


Tsopk (Sophene)
No indications at all that it was politically distinct from the rest of Greater Armenia until murder of Shavarsh/Xerxes by his Seleukid wife in 212 BC.

• Capital - Arshamashat (Arsamosata)
• Ruler – Abdissares, circa 212 - 200 BC.

He is, following Toumanoff, brother of Yervand/Orontes IV and Shavarsh/Xerxes, whom he seems to have replaced as their coins and headgear are so strikingly similar. They had another brother, Mithras, the High Priest mentioned above. They are all assumed to be the offsprings of Arsham/Arsames.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kommagene (Commagene)
This is a tricky one for two reasons:

1. Kommagene wasn’t a fully-fledged political entity until Ptolomaeus, grandson of the aforementioned Arsham, established his dynasty there circa 163 BC. And that’s almost half century after the mod's start date (see genealogy above).
2. Its current central position in Anatolia is odd, it needs to be moved further south to northern Syria and so should be south west of Tsopk/Sophene, not to its north west.
   Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

   
   Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

   

Perhaps it can be substituted by Armenia Minor/Lesser Armenia/Pokr Hayk? This stretched from central Anatolia north towards the coast of Black Sea.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

However, Lesser Armenia too was not politically separate until destruction of Yervand IV and seems to have appeared as a result of the breakup of Yervanduni hold following the overthrow of Yervand IV by Artashes circa 200 BC.

another option, based on the above assumption that Armenia Minor was a part of Yervanduni domains until the murder of Yervand IV/the Last in 200 BC, is to give this current Commagene-held region to Kingdom of Armenia. this will also strengthen the latter a little and giving it a fighting chance in case Seleukids decided to focus on it. the region can then be coded to be 'liberate-able' and rebel as Armenia Minor (instead of 'usurpers', 'rebels' or whatever).

Yet another possibility is to give Kommagene to Kappadokia, though there is the hard-coded issue of the mountain range placed right between current Kommagene region and Kappadokia and so no way to get the two connected without trespassing through regions to the north/south (unless vanilla map can be modded). the region can then be coded to be 'liberate-able' and rebel as as Armenia Minor.


PS. on native names. is it possible/in line with mod's policy to implement them? also, is it possible to change province/towns names based on the owning faction? i.e. there is a script in EB2 and we have Armenian Tsopk for the province of Sophene when controlled by Hayastan. the name of this province changes to Sophene if taken over by the Greeks/Romans (same goes for Taras, becoming Tarentum when Romans conquer it). is something like this possible in Attila/AE?



A faction specific collection of inconsistencies and things to improve for Armenia. none are game breaking and are expected given the current beta state of the mod. posting them here to potentially help to gradually improve the faction.

1. dynastic inconsistencies - Orontid dynasty (on top of the shot) yet led by Artaxias, founder of the next Artaxiad/Artashesyan dynasty. Should be Yervanduni/Orontid Dynasty and headed by Yervand/Oront IV, founder of Yervandashat.

btw, whats mod's policy on names for factions, regions, characters, units? is it Latin or Greek versions thereof as opposed to native?

2. linked to the above, some nonsensical vanilla character names are still present and need to be deleted/replaced by the appropriate factional names.

3. another vanilla issue - camels in Greater Armenia. totally out of place. they are also present on the southern Pontic shore, roughly where Sinope should have been. both need to go or be replaced by horses, if possible.

4. problems with FL's offspring: male name - Artavasdes - yet it is a daughter.

5. odd mercenary pool - full of out of place (southern side of the Caucasus) Sarmatians.

6. FL at the head of a light skirmisher cavalry. should be heavy, catas instead. same issue with other factional FLs, i.e. Seleukid Antiochus the Great fighting on foot.


keep up good work.

[Fraxinicus]

Not sure if this is intentional, but Armenia starts out with a big deficit in food (-38). Looks like an oversight to me, not sure why they would start out with buildings that cost more food than they produce.

[Sarkiss]

Not sure if this is intentional, but Armenia starts out with a big deficit in food (-38). Looks like an oversight to me, not sure why they would start out with buildings that cost more food than they produce.

yep, there is that as well. im curious as to what was the original design for their dynastic politics. atm it seems to be a rather unavailing mishmash of the two: Orontid-Artaxiad. their initial recruitment is rather weak, too - skirmishers only + a persian spearmen unit iirc.

[armen]

Which building to recruit cataphracts?

[Sarkiss]

Which building to recruit cataphracts?

no idea, sorry. would be great to have them, or some form of heavy cavalry, available from the start, imho.

[armen]

Armenia is unplayable with out heavy cav should be implemented

[Sarkiss]

Armenia is unplayable with out heavy cav should be implemented

yes, they badly need access to heavier troops - atm nothing above lights is available. but mod's still in beta so fingers crossed. the team was tirelessly pushing out fixes and updates so im confident that eventually they'll get around to it.

btw, another observation. Cadusii mercenaries only have 120 men in a unit even though they are footmen. screenshot.

another minor thing, can Tushpa be renamed into Tosp? its armenian variation of the name and would be in line with having Yervandashat.

[Sheridan]

Keeping an eye on this thread. Armenia's recruitment will be fixed over the next few days. Appreciate all the suggestions for making this faction as accurate and enjoyable as possible

[armen]

The Generals unit is set as a skirmish cav. I dont know if its intentional but a cataphract unit would be more fitting I think

[Sarkiss]

Keeping an eye on this thread. Armenia's recruitment will be fixed over the next few days. Appreciate all the suggestions for making this faction as accurate and enjoyable as possible

great, thanks. will keep posting the oddities as they pop up and suggestions. thanks for hard work.

The Generals unit is set as a skirmish cav. I dont know if its intentional but a cataphract unit would be more fitting I think

yes, thats the issue other factions have as well though (check Makedon, Seleukids...), so im sure the team is well aware. try disbanding/replacing him and see what other units are on offer for the generals.

[Sarkiss]

copied over from another thread:

I'm playing as Armenia and when I go try to recruit a new army, the button does nothing. I've tried multiple cities. I'm at 2 of 4 armies. I can reinstate an army.

seconded

Do you have screenshots? Any material would be helpful, thanks

cannot raise a new army, gives weird bluish character screen

cannot disband/replace a general/FL - button's blank
tried dismissing him through army screen. same result - cannot be done.

[Sarkiss]

added starting families for the Armenian kingdoms to the OP to better reflect the situation in 202 BC.

keep up good work, gents. AE is a biggie, on a same epic scale as EB and DeI. hope you'd manage to push it out of the current beta at some point.

[Vardan the Great]

Thank you Sarkiss for your efforts to improve Armenian faction. The knowledge you demonstrate is interesting and useful.
Thank you Sheridan and AE team for your great representation of Armenia and for keeping track on this post.
But first let me make some notions on Sarkiss' post:
1. Armenia was tributary state at that time. Starting from Ervand III (Orontes III) Armenia started gradually sag under the pressure of mighty Selucids. Starting from Ervand III Armenia started paying tribute, interrupted by few rejections to pay. Armenia also lost Commagene which became Selucids' client.
2. Speaking of the starting date. Actually the last Orontid king Ervand IV was overthrown at 200BC by Artashes (Artaxias) and Zareh (both offshoots of Orontid dynasty). They then split Armenian kingdom into two: Greater Armenia (the actual playable faction) and Sophene (Tsopk) ruled by Artaxias and Zareh respectively. This event was supposedly provoked/supported by Antiocus III the Great, who was adopting the policy of Devide et Impera (divide and rule). So he could lay relative control on the sturdy Armenian kingdom to the North. Both kingdoms were tributary, unlike the case in the game where Sophene is a client state. The latter was eventually absorbed into Greater Armenia buy the successive Armenian kings. Taking into account that the game starts just two years before the split happened, I find it wise of AE team to kind of neglect this gap. Hence we may have a more diverse region, and an opportunity to play with Artaxias dynasty the whole game and make the military and civic reforms that Artaxias I kick started, instead of having Orontid rule only because of that two years issue.
3. I do agree with the fact that Armenia may not have access to have units at the starts, because it gives room for development, and to perform the historic military reform that took place in Armenia at that time. This is also the case for DEI mod. This was also annoying to me, but later I understood how good it is. Because cmon, hellenic states and romans were the most advances states at the moment. Sure they must have an advantage over Armenia.
4. Some Armenians call Armenia as Hayastan which is not correct. "stan" is a Iranian ending which appeared in use during the middle ages. Armenia was called Hayk' and the greater Armenia as Mets Hayk'.
Anyways there is a lot of things to discuss which depends on the depth you want to have on the faction and the time you want to spend on making it good (for instance, all the three factions may have that "one blood" feature and an opportunity to unite). I am open for all discussion and will be extremely happy to somehow assists you in developing Armenian faction.
P.S. I am also an Armenian. Cheers guys.

[Sarkiss]

unfortunately most of these points are simplifications and imprecise generalisations, and thats what the mod needs to sort out, but lets have a very quick look:

1. Armenia was tributary state at that time.

when, in 202? Greater Armenia (Mets Hayk)? do you mind sharing sources on this? the only thing we do know with any certainty is that there was a 'revolution' in 200. some speculate that the reasons this happened are precisely to do with Yervand's reluctance to bend. now again, this is conjectural as we lack sources but this theory on Yervand's intransigence does explain what will follow in 200 and can be seen as a cause. there are other theories too but those stand on even shakier legs. if you do have sources that shed light on state of affairs in 202 then i'd appreciate you sharing them, please.

Armenia also lost Commagene which became Selucids' client.

when, before or in 202? Kommagene formed into a politically distinct unit circa 163 BC. Toumanoff even speculates that it was a part of Sophene before. so again some sources would be really helpful here.

2. Speaking of the starting date. Actually the last Orontid king Ervand IV was overthrown at 200BC by Artashes (Artaxias) and Zareh (both offshoots of Orontid dynasty). They then split Armenian kingdom into two: Greater Armenia (the actual playable faction) and Sophene (Tsopk) ruled by Artaxias and Zareh respectively. This event was supposedly provoked/supported by Antiocus III the Great, who was adopting the policy of Devide et Impera (divide and rule). So he could lay relative control on the sturdy Armenian kingdom to the North.

interesting. although why destroy Yervand IV if Greater Armenia was a tributary state at the time, as you suggested above? why cause unrest and disorder when you have a a stable tribute paying dynasty to guard an important section of your northern border?

Both kingdoms were tributary, unlike the case in the game where Sophene is a client state.

again, sources? in 212, Antiochus III subdued Xerxes extracting a 'present' of money and livestock and becoming Xerxes' brother in law. shortly after Xerxes was murdered by his new wife and one Abdissares, for whom we have nothing but some coins, have supposedly ruled thereafter until a revolt of 200.

Taking into account that the game starts just two years before the split happened, I find it wise of AE team to kind of neglect this gap. Hence we may have a more diverse region, and an opportunity to play with Artaxias dynasty the whole game and make the military and civic reforms that Artaxias I kick started, instead of having Orontid rule only because of that two years issue.

better solution would be to have a scripted revolt triggered (and an opportunity to crash it) then being clumsy and starting with incorrect dynasties and characters, but thats just my opinion.

3. I do agree with the fact that Armenia may not have access to have units at the starts, because it gives room for development, and to perform the historic military reform that took place in Armenia at that time. This is also the case for DEI mod. This was also annoying to me, but later I understood how good it is. Because cmon, hellenic states and romans were the most advances states at the moment. Sure they must have an advantage over Armenia.

thats a purely gamie consideration and a bit of nonsense. Rome and successors are already much larger territorially and stronger economically and field highly professionalised armies. Armenia has none of these advantageous, why cripple it by inability to recruit decent units that should form the backbone of its army and represent the type of warfare characteristic of the faction?

Anyways there is a lot of things to discuss which depends on the depth you want to have on the faction and the time you want to spend on making it good (for instance, all the three factions may have that "one blood" feature and an opportunity to unite).

actually, having them as the 'one/same blood' (or whatever its called) might be a good idea. though again, i would probably get rid of Kommagene and replace it with Pokr Hayk, or give province to Armenia or Kappadocians.

[Sarkiss]

Taking into account that the game starts just two years before the split happened, I find it wise of AE team to kind of neglect this gap. Hence we may have a more diverse region, and an opportunity to play with Artaxias dynasty the whole game and make the military and civic reforms that Artaxias I kick started, instead of having Orontid rule only because of that two years issue.

better solution would be to have a scripted revolt triggered (and an opportunity to crash it) then being clumsy and starting with incorrect dynasties and characters, but thats just my opinion.

actually, i think i understated the case here. i dont think skipping two years is not an issue. it is, and a big one at that, imho. if starting date is spring 202 then all the 'pieces' need to be as historical accurate as possible and placed on the 'board' in precisely the order they should be in at this date. sloppiness with '2 year dont matter' wont do, imho. otherwise why bother with starting in 202 and Battle of Zama at all? we all know what happens next, might as well start few months/couple of years later and get this done and over with, giving Rome free reign in the western Mediterranean.

dont want to sound dramatic but the team has managed to implement some outstanding features already and the fact the mod is finally out is a miracle in and of itself. the team has indeed achieved some amazing progress so far. that said, by and large the mod is still in its infancy and 'brand making' is in its early stages. if the mod is to mature and stand shoulder to shoulder with the 'big boys' out there, as it should, it needs to ensure that historical side of things is properly researched and implemented and of the same high standard as other aspects of the mod. devil is in the details and letting things slide in what may seem an insignificant aspect isnt going to do the mod justice and help gain the reputation it deserves.

Still keeping an eye on this. I love when people show interest for a particular faction. Armenia will receive it's due attention as soon as I've completed the Economy update.

great to hear. getting things done historically accurately and properly game-play wise takes time, especially in a voluntary projects like this one. we've been improving EB2's Armenia for years, but i still cannot say that the we've reached the final destinations - things constantly get updated and there is still room for adding more depth and detail. the best of luck and shout if some research/concept help with eastern side of the map is needed.

[Sheridan]

Still keeping an eye on this. I love when people show interest for a particular faction. Armenia will receive it's due attention as soon as I've completed the Economy update.

[Vardano]

Sarkiss are you satisfied with Armenian roster in this mod? There is fact that Julius Caesar used in his campaigns Armenian archers, I'm sure they were elite archers. I don't have any resources right now but every great mod like EB and RS always included elite and well armored archers for Armenian roster. Also Armenians had very good armored bow cavalry and Azat cav were not skirmishing force but rather heavy melee cavalry and they those young nobles also fought on a foot were they could not afford to have a armored horse. Overall Armenian roster seems to be a bit poor and I would like you to contribute to this with your knowledge and resources if you can. Thanks.

[Sarkiss]

Sarkiss are you satisfied with Armenian roster in this mod? There is fact that Julius Caesar used in his campaigns Armenian archers, I'm sure they were elite archers. I don't have any resources right now but every great mod like EB and RS always included elite and well armored archers for Armenian roster. Also Armenians had very good armored bow cavalry and Azat cav were not skirmishing force but rather heavy melee cavalry and they those young nobles also fought on a foot were they could not afford to have a armored horse. Overall Armenian roster seems to be a bit poor and I would like you to contribute to this with your knowledge and resources if you can. Thanks.

not sure if my contribution's needed tbh. agreed on Azats. truth be told, i havent investigated what their roster looks like atm at all (beyond playing for several turns). will look into the files this weekend, hopefully.

[Sarkiss]

a quick question. trying to get missions added using PFM 3.5.2 but cant get my head around the technicalities. found this old thread in the workshop but cant really understand what this means:

advice_levels_tables clone one row like this "bel_advice_intro_flyby_suebi" and change it in your faction name.

by "change it in your faction name" does it have to be a "Kingdom of Armenia"? cant see any entries of this sort in db/advice_levels_tables. i assume Armenia is represented by one of the unused vanilla factions? which one?

sorry for a dumb question, any guidance would be appreciated. thanks.

[Sheridan]

a quick question. trying to get missions added using PFM 3.5.2 but cant get my head around the technicalities. found this old thread in the workshop but cant really understand what this means:
by "change it in your faction name" does it have to be a "Kingdom of Armenia"? cant see any entries of this sort in db/advice_levels_tables. i assume Armenia is represented by one of the unused vanilla factions? which one?

sorry for a dumb question, any guidance would be appreciated. thanks.

Not dumb at all, that's how we all learn! This is a bit of new territory to me, but by faction name I assume they mean the faction key listed in factions_tables. For Armenia, this key should be rom_Armenia, which I recommend double-checking in that table.