Makedonian verus Hellenic Cultures?

[Marinakis]

Hello,

First of all, great mod - truly. Even in a beta/first release state, I would rather play this than any of the recent vanilla Total War releases in recent memory.

With all that said, I am curious, what is the logic behind having "Hellenic" culture alongside a separate "Makedonian" culture. Makedonian is just a subcategory of Hellenic. If your going for that system then you might as well have Doric (Makedon, Sparta, Crete, Rhodes), Attic (Athens), Aeolian (Pergamon), etc. The Seleukids in particular were notorious for spreading Hellenic culture, not some Makedonian sub-sect culture.

Please don't take this post as a criticism, I'm just curious. If you are trying to differentiate between Classic Greek and Alexandrian Greek, perhaps the old city states could be of Classical Hellenic culture, whereas the successor states could be Alexandrian Hellenic or Neo-Hellenic.

[Furgon]

There is probably more ideological difference rather than cultural. Hellenic is associated with democratic governance, free trade and elements of egalitarian society, sort of akin to modern western liberal concept. Whereas Makedonian represents imperialistic worldview with high emphasis on state over person, an asian model.
The same kind of difference as in democratic-oligarchic struggles of Classic period.

[Sarkiss]

im not a dev and not sure what the intended differences (and similarities) and impacts have been, but just to add to the above. Makedonians are monarchists and king is central to their sociopolitical and military organisation. it may not necessarily involve notions of imperialism - indeed, one of the thesis regarding the failure of reuniting Alexander's empire by successors was lack of a broad support for the project by the Makedonians. unlike with the Greeks, kingship was the heart of Makedonian statehood.

[Marinakis]

im not a dev and not sure what the intended differences (and similarities) and impacts have been, but just to add to the above. Makedonians are monarchists and king is central to their sociopolitical and military organisation. it may not necessarily involve notions of imperialism - indeed, one of the thesis regarding the failure of reuniting Alexander's empire by successors was lack of a broad support for the project by the Makedonians. unlike with the Greeks, kingship was the heart of Makedonian statehood.

With respect, thats a misconception of the Greek world at the time. There were numerous examples of monarchies outside Makedonia. There is no serious difference between Makedonian Greek and Koine Greek.

Everyone thinks Athens when they think "Greek." There were a million different examples of "Greekness" at the time. Sparta was even a type of duel king monarchical system.

[Sarkiss]

With respect, thats a misconception of the Greek world at the time. There were numerous examples of monarchies outside Makedonia. There is no serious difference between Makedonian Greek and Koine Greek.

i never said there werent, and wasnt referring to the 'Greek' in a broader sense, but only Makedonian statehood, which was focused exclusively on the institution of the monarchy (plus the so-called Assembly that supposedly served to legitimise the candidates, but is poorly understood due to paucity of sources).

[Marinakis]

i never said there werent, and wasnt referring to the 'Greek' in a broader sense, but only Makedonian statehood, which was focused exclusively on the institution of the monarchy (plus the so-called Assembly that supposedly served to legitimise the candidates, but is poorly understood due to paucity of sources).

Yeah sorry. I meant to respond to a post above yours.

Back to the original topic - How about Classic Hellenic (Stereotypical Athenian Polis Culture) and Koine Hellenic (Common Greek Culture) which would be more fitting for the post-Alexander era in my opinion.

[Furgon]

With respect, thats a misconception of the Greek world at the time. There were numerous examples of monarchies outside Makedonia. There is no serious difference between Makedonian Greek and Koine Greek.

Everyone thinks Athens when they think "Greek." There were a million different examples of "Greekness" at the time. Sparta was even a type of duel king monarchical system.

There is no misconception really. Spartan so-called kings were pretty much another version of Roman consules, they were the executive branch, while the major part of political power were held by Gerousia. They had some elected institutes too. Syracusan tyrants may have had supreme power, but they were an aberration in the commonly accepted socio-political culture: either usurpers or dictators, appointed by city council. The common idea of greeks was that of citizenship, not of the state. As opposed to autocratic tendencies of "barbarians" that were any nongreek, including macedonians.

[Marinakis]

There is no misconception really. Spartan so-called kings were pretty much another version of Roman consules, they were the executive branch, while the major part of political power were held by Gerousia. They had some elected institutes too. Syracusan tyrants may have had supreme power, but they were an aberration in the commonly accepted socio-political culture: either usurpers or dictators, appointed by city council. The common idea of greeks was that of citizenship, not of the state. As opposed to autocratic tendencies of "barbarians" that were any nongreek, including macedonians.

Well, not really. The Spartan government featured two kings which were subjected to checks and balances from an assembly of citizens, which is quite impressive for the time. Interestingly, the U.S. government is/was much more based off the Spartan government then that of Athens. Still, the kings of Sparta were still kings. They enjoyed significant power and influence and benefited from the basic hereditary rights associated with most kings.

I really don't understand the comment "The common idea of Greeks was that of citizenship, not of the state. As opposed to autocratic tendencies of "barbarians" that were any nongreek, including Macedonians." Greek =/= Athens and all her ideas. The idea of citizenship does not define a diverse and wide-spanning peoples' cultural identity. Again, there were numerous autocratic/dictatorial societies within the ancient Greek sphere, I don't see how that makes any of them less Greek... from any perspective - it's just a form of government. There was much more to the Greek world and identity than just Athens. Athens dominated the Greek world for about a hundred years - Greek culture and identity preceded Athens and continued to evolve after Athens fell. The Macedonians are just as "Greek" as the often despotic/autocratic societies within Syracuse, Cyrene, Ionia, Epirus, Pontus, Cimmerian Bosporus, etc.

[sourpis]

Well, not really. The Spartan government featured two kings which were subjected to checks and balances from an assembly of citizens, which is quite impressive for the time. Interestingly, the U.S. government is/was much more based off the Spartan government then that of Athens. Still, the kings of Sparta were still kings. They enjoyed significant power and influence and benefited from the basic hereditary rights associated with most kings.

I really don't understand the comment "The common idea of Greeks was that of citizenship, not of the state. As opposed to autocratic tendencies of "barbarians" that were any nongreek, including Macedonians." Greek =/= Athens and all her ideas. The idea of citizenship does not define a diverse and wide-spanning peoples' cultural identity. Again, there were numerous autocratic/dictatorial societies within the ancient Greek sphere, I don't see how that makes any of them less Greek... from any perspective - it's just a form of government. There was much more to the Greek world and identity than just Athens. Athens dominated the Greek world for about a hundred years - Greek culture and identity preceded Athens and continued to evolve after Athens fell. The Macedonians are just as "Greek" as the often despotic/autocratic societies within Syracuse, Cyrene, Ionia, Epirus, Pontus, Cimmerian Bosporus, etc.

at the beginning of the mod Havoc make a YouTube video about ancient empires. and me like you I saw this Macedonian culture thing so I asked Petellius one of the creators! told me that the mold is on really early state so that's why if I want to see how it's going to look or how it's going to be when it's going to release I can try to see the mood that they make 4 divided at impera for Rome 2 so I give it the go and I so for me correctly if I may that in culture on successor kingdoms have Hellenistic culture. honestly I don't know why the guys choose to keep this on the first release of the mod for sure there is not a book or a university in the whole world that speaks about an existence of a Macedonian culture.we all know that those kingdoms the successor kingdoms have Hellenistic culture that's the history. I'm disappointed and for now I'm going back to divide at impera even though I really like the campaign of ancient empires!

[Furgon]

Greek =/= Athens and all her ideas. The idea of citizenship does not define a diverse and wide-spanning peoples' cultural identity. Again, there were numerous autocratic/dictatorial societies within the ancient Greek sphere, I don't see how that makes any of them less Greek...

Like I said from the beginning, it's not about culture, it's about politics. Look for example at Pergamon, it has Hellenic culture despite being a monarchy. It corresponds perfectly well with how they behaved towards their neighbours and the fact that they aspired to be "New Athens". While being technically a Successor state, it acted differently.
P.S. mind you, it's not some bizarre theory that I came up with one night. It is simply my take on the reasoning why the team designed their mod in this way.

[The Byzantine]

I also thought that was weird. I understand it probably implies an ideological difference but i think the term Makedonian culture doesn't make much sense. I would much more prefer Marinakis suggestion.

[Gongo80]

an important detail: spartan king are not something similar to other "king", even makedonian king.

[IrishHitman]

Surely it has as much to do with gameplay as anything else? If Makedonia had the same culture as the other Greeks, then the other states would be considerably more easy to conquer for them. Which is not an accurate model of how things played out between the Greek states in the slightest, as you can imagine.