[PREVIEW] Qarthadastim

[KAM 2150]

I think they are last to get large overhaul but there will be tweaks to other factions, just not on the same scale.


EDIT: Dresden beat me

[JCB206]

if someone like me likes ancient history I have prepared a document concerning the history of carthage and my land, feel free to read it, cheers

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...JI7o4MpdY/edit

Thank you so much. Love Ancient Carthage!

[Fest]

This incoming faction update looks amazing, great job by all involved.

[Winston Smith]

Will Carthage still get access to unique mercenaries available for instant recruitment?

[Dresden]

Yes, they will retain their normal factional mercenaries and the normal mercenary recruitment. These new mercenaries are cheaper and easier to maintain than normal mercenaries but require the barracks.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Yes, they will retain their normal factional mercenaries and the normal mercenary recruitment. These new mercenaries are cheaper and easier to maintain than normal mercenaries but require the barracks.

A feature that every Carthage user will certainly approve.

[simplemind07]

Love the Carthage preview as they are my favorite faction! Did the their navy get any overhauls by any chance? A thought, any chance to give the sacred band a tiny pinch of dark purple to make them stand out and all nobly? Love this mod and all the effort you guys put in, thank you

[Ivan_Moscavich]

Love the Carthage preview as they are my favorite faction! Did the their navy get any overhauls by any chance? A thought, any chance to give the sacred band a tiny pinch of dark purple to make them stand out and all nobly? Love this mod and all the effort you guys put in, thank you

Quadremes are available earlier now. I think that is all we did.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

In honor of our pending update.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[popovic]

A small suggestion regarding my previous note (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15590793)

Perhaps you could consider renaming those infantry Liby-Phoenician units into "African infantry"?

African infantry is a term used by Polybius to describe the troops Hannibal had at Cannae (I can`t find a direct link to actual Polybius work, but most works covering the battle will mention them, for instance https://books.google.rs/books?id=VTa...fantry&f=false)

And while we don`t know who those troops exactly represent, it is somewhat plausible that they were men recruited/levied from Carthage`s African possesions (but not full Carthaginian citizens).

In other words they were close to what these Liby-Phoenicians in the mod are supposed to represent (an evolution of Carthaginian armies influenced by circumstances), but again, these are actually historical, they were mentioned in the most reliable written source we have about the period.

BTW, this is how Europa Barbarorum have them: http://europabarbarorum.wikia.com/wiki/Dorkim_Alupim_(Elite_African_Infantry).

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

A small suggestion regarding my previous note (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15590793)

Perhaps you could consider renaming those infantry Liby-Phoenician units into "African infantry"?

African infantry is a term used by Polybius to describe the troops Hannibal had at Cannae (I can`t find a direct link to actual Polybius work, but most works covering the battle will mention them, for instance https://books.google.rs/books?id=VTa...fantry&f=false)

And while we don`t know who those troops exactly represent, it is somewhat plausible that they were men recruited/levied from Carthage`s African possesions (but not full Carthaginian citizens).

In other words they were close to what these Liby-Phoenicians in the mod are supposed to represent (an evolution of Carthaginian armies influenced by circumstances), but again, these are actually historical, they were mentioned in the most reliable written source we have about the period.

BTW, this is how Europa Barbarorum have them: http://europabarbarorum.wikia.com/wiki/Dorkim_Alupim_(Elite_African_Infantry).

Yeah I remember that specific talk about them, I'll recheck and forward it.

[Dresden]

I already answered why we chose to have those units and population class Africans would not make any sense in that context of what we are aiming for here. If anything they would be a third class/subject unit like the Libyans, Numidians, etc.

There is clearly evidence for some melding and also just on a realistic level there would of course be that. I don't understand the problem. We have various sources that they were used extensively in various military situations as we already explained in the preview. We are also choosing to represent some sort of evolution of the military on some level through reforms, which most of those units are (reform units). Referencing EB as you did in your post, there are these exact units in that mod

I am not sure why you keep saying its ahistorical, there are multiple historical references to these peoples and their use.

[popovic]

I am not sure why you keep saying its ahistorical, there are multiple historical references to these peoples and their use.

Please don`t get me wrong here, I have the utmost respect for you, and the work you have done. But, can you or someone else who did the research post those historical references?

I mean, as I said, the only mention of Liby-Phoenician being used as military men I could find was in Polybius where he said that 450 of them and Libyans were sent as cavalry to Spain. Never any actual mentioning of them fighting as hoplites or whatnot...

Here is another link to back the point: https://books.google.rs/books?id=oxO...lybius&f=false
(P.S. It`s a great book, I recomend reading the rest of it as well).

Again, don`t get me wrong. If I`m wrong, and there are actual historical references, I`ll be very happy (that way I can just sit down, and enjoy the mod ).

[Don_Diego]

Well other Punic cities across North African such as Utica were "Liby-Pheonician" and not full Punic citizens. So why would these city states not have citizen hoplites of their own etc? "African Infatry" and Liby-Pheonician Infantry mean the same thing, however the african name is just not detailed enough as we have lots of different african tribes so I think the liby-pheonician description fits better anyhow?

Also not every unit is fully based on detailed sources otherwise this mod would have only a few units, we have to fill in the blanks too...

Also reading earlier comments it seems you are fine with the unit but want to rename them the the generic sounding "african infantry". You have to remember although the only sources we have in detail come from roman writers like polybius, they had a vauge idea of their enemies too! In fact many times the historical writers make mistakes about various tribes and units or the translation is debated etc.. The african name fits our native levy units but not these advanced units in carthage.

[Dresden]

We are making some assumptions of course and some extrapolations as Diego explained. I don't think anyone disagrees that this classification of people existed and fought, there are many sources for that. Livy describes their status on multiple occasions constitutionally and as a people - saying they are a numerous mixed race. Historians make the argument that they are analogous to partially Spanish colonial populations.

Perhaps the disagreement is how they were used? Just because the only source we have about their use describes a detachment of cavalry doesn't mean they weren't used in other ways in other locations. I would argue that the extent to which the population existed would necessitate other uses, especially since it seems that historians often clump them together with the basic Carthaginian population. It wouldn't be clear to external sources the exact differentiation between these classifications, often times probably like the internal tribal divisions of Roman society. Even in the ancient sources, the terms are mixed and its not clear when one population is being referenced. It even seems that at varying times most of the population is referenced as Liby-phoenician in many locations. This suggests to me that as time passes and based on location, the population became more prevalent and would have been employed in different ways.

Anyway, this is how we have chosen to have them in the mod and represent the hypothetical development of Carthage in later reform periods. In my opinion, based on the large amount of sources concerning this type of population and the scholarship about the changing role of the population over time, it just makes sense to include them in later reforms as different unit types. We do want to have historical accuracy but we also have gameplay and other considerations in most of the mod. The moment you hit end turn after the first turn, you are no longer following history - as Carthage you can take over Rome and subjugate Gaul. So we inevitably have to posit some scenarios that we base as much in history and reality as possible in order to advance the game systems.

[popovic]

Well other Punic cities across North African such as Utica were "Liby-Pheonician" and not full Punic citizens. So why would these city states not have citizen hoplites of their own etc? "African Infatry" and Liby-Pheonician Infantry mean the same thing, however the african name is just not detailed enough as we have lots of different african tribes so I think the liby-pheonician description fits better anyhow?

Also not every unit is fully based on detailed sources otherwise this mod would have only a few units, we have to fill in the blanks too...

Also reading earlier comments it seems you are fine with the unit but want to rename them the the generic sounding "african infantry". You have to remember although the only sources we have in detail come from roman writers like polybius, they had a vauge idea of their enemies too! In fact many times the historical writers make mistakes about various tribes and units or the translation is debated etc.. The african name fits our native levy units but not these advanced units in carthage.

You misunderstood me.

When I say "African Infantry", I of course don`t mean "infantry from the region of Africa". I am referring to African Infantry as it was described by Polybius in his work "The Histories", being fielded at Cannae by Hannibal.

Although this might have been a general term used by Polybius, in his work he gave a more detailed description of those units, and generally spoken highly of them.

That is why certain earlier mods such as EB added units with that name (and modeled after the description given by Polybius).

I just think that if one is already hypothesizing about how some Carthaginian military unit in an alternate history could look like, he might as well start off with a historical "unit", and then take it from there.

For instance, if there were 2 units of the sort (just like you are planning both Thureos and Thorax version of Liby-Phoenician infantry), the early version could be modelled like in EB: equipped by pillaged Roman equipment (as that is how Polybius describes them).

The late version could be absolutely the same as the Thorax version you already have. The alt-history narrative could go something like: "Hannibal was the first to field various infantrymen from Africa, and shape them into a quality fighting force. Later on that became the norm, and such infantry embraced new tactics and equipment".

So yes, basically very similar to what you have here, but with more flavor, and more historical (at least for the early version of the unit).
IMHO.

[Falco]

In honor of our pending update.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Nordling]

So when can we expect the public beta to be released? This torture of waiting is too much! Have mercy!!!

[Falco]

So when can we expect the public beta to be released? This torture of waiting is too much! Have mercy!!!

I got this one too guys.

Soon

[Nordling]

I got this one too guys.

Soon

Hahahahahah, yeah