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Thread: Where now are the horse and the rider...

  1. #1
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Where now are the horse and the rider...




    Now that things have mostly settled down a bit, and due to some interest in hearing more about everything that has happened here since the start of the year, I'll go ahead and go over things for the sake of some transparency and clarification. As SND (staff non-disclosure) is a hot button topic overall, and especially as it has applied here, I won't keep everything behind that wall just because, but I will also not be throwing it completely out the window, and what I write below is what I believe to be a fair amount of transparency and no more than is necessary in keeping with both good faith and maintaining enough SND.


    As many of you probably know, Dux was once upon a time the gaming overseer for the hotseat section. When he became less active and had to step away from the position, it was of course necessary to decide on a new overseer and the future direction of the section's staff. While I would have liked to have Dux have more input on the matter, that just wasn't an option so I decided to hand over the position to Soul.


    Fast forward some time, and I had to step down as gaming hex last year (busy IRL, and still am really quite busy unfortunately), as I felt being in red while not able to be active enough for potentially long periods of time was not something I should do. I stepped out without a proper gaming hex replacement, something in hindsight is of course not a decision I am happy with, but at the time I saw little alternative as well as from my perspective a stable enough section staff setup to manage as it was regardless. During this time of my absence as a hexer, other admins had to step in when issues arose, and while I thank them for doing so, it probably didn't help that they had little prior experience with the gaming staff I had worked with and thus made the situations harder on both them and GS as well. Again though, hindsight...


    During this time, Parafix was removed from staff for issues predominantly related to SND. Jadli would also later be removed for similar issues. I don't believe the specifics of this are entirely relevant now (though perhaps to some degree), nor was I fully present during the proceedings, so I feel no need to comment on those further. Suffice to say though that most here are probably not unfamiliar with personal issues between them, and these issues were not conducive to either of them remaining in staff in the end.


    I stepped back into the role of gaming hex earlier this year soon after the "split" in the hotseat community (or whatever you would like to call it). As I said before, I had left early without setting things up more properly, and whether that was the main catalyst for things that transpired this year could be up for debate, but I think I definitely dropped the ball either way. Additionally, I felt it unfair to the other hex that had to step in to take care of things, having less experience with the people and section, and adding just more work to their already heavy workload. This is why I stepped back into the GS hex role.


    =================================


    I will not try to summarize too much of what transpired in the past few months, as I am sure many of you are already aware of it at least to some degree, and I don't wish to paint the wrong picture by adding a lot more to an already complex narrative. I would prefer to answer specific questions you may have on this though, and go from there. Please be mindful that SND and general user privacy may still apply, so I will be sure to respect that where needed, though given the unique nature of this entire situation, I don't intend on throwing everything behind a non disclosure curtain.


    =================================


    Unfortunately such a split in the community that also split staff does not make any decision easy or perfect for all involved. I had no intent on removing Soul completely or permanently from his position as overseer, though wished to temporarily as it would coincide with the break he wished to take and hoped that would potentially help things settle down in the long run. I also had no intent to definitively change the rule(s) regarding hotseat admin passwords, only that it seriously needed to be discussed since I had received enough complaints on the matter by then. I had communicated this to GS hotseat staff, and I do think this was received the wrong way and Soul and Parafix took this as definitive before I had said anything publicly, and Soul officially resigned as overseer and left staff.


    Up to then, and to this day, I have seen little that needed a forceful hand to any degree in changing. I have not changed Soul's revising of the admin password rule, and as it stands now it may not change (though I will continue to be mindful of it and its implications). I did not officially fire anyone from staff in this time, Soul included, and did not ban anyone during this time (though it came close once or twice [additionally Jadli's fixed suspension from hotseats was instated just before I officially returned, and I let that run its course and did not modify it]). I would also like to make it clear that the end goal was never to explicitly 'get everyone back to TWC' either. Do not take this the wrong way though; I have been part of many other gaming communities in the past, and seen plenty of these sorts of splits before (more or less the same), and sometimes it is an inevitability or necessity. Whether or not what happened here was that was not evident earlier, which is why I did not approach with the intent of simply trying to get everyone to come back because we hate losing members. In both this area and thinking of Total War as a whole, I'm a bigger believer in the TW community at large and what is good for all TW fans as well as TWC members, as I feel that is healthier for both this site and the series the site is based on overall. Rather, the intent was to fix whatever potential unhealthiness was causing the issue(s) as best as could be done and let things go from there, and if that meant some people wished to not play hotseats here anymore, that was totally fine and I am not going to force anyone one way or another.


    I do however, have control over staff, and have the responsibility to make sure it runs smoothly, and while GS as a whole and this section may yet have changes in the future to ensure that, making sure staff is going as it needs to be is really my job. The overall goal is and always should be to have staff be serving the community in the right capacity and to not alienate it, nor to force people one way or another when it comes to where they wish to spend their time and effort both in hotseats and whatever other ventures they may have.


    I realize Soul has posted a video on his youtube channel with many thoughts on the whole matter. Attacks on myself in any form I could care less about; had a good chuckle from it actually. I need not comment on specifics he may have, if anything you may ask questions here or to me about it. While I realize that no matter what I cannot be the most absolute objective observer in this entire situation, to me his video is entirely too biased and serves no purpose to better anyone or anything, only as a platform for narcissism. Unfortunate that I must say that, but it is what it is; again, anyone may ask questions for clarification, I will answer as appropriate.


    So going forward, we of course hope things will run more smoothly and things can once and for all be put behind us. This is still an ongoing process now and will be for some time. For now though, as I had said previously, any former GS from hotseats section are not liable to be considered for reinstatement anytime soon. Anyone is still free to apply, but I guarantee nothing beyond it being seen and considered along the needs of current staff. I realize the staff for the section is considerably smaller now, with time we will hopefully have a good balance again. Changes to rules may still be on the table, comments and recommendations are always welcome still, however staff still holds that responsibility and decision making for consistency.


    In the end, what I am consistently seeing from my standpoint is complete unwillingness by some to find any sort of compromise, and it is why things got to where they were and became detrimental to more than just those few. I do not get two fairly distinct sides of an issue telling me they are both 100% correct and righteous, then expect to see much good coming from that in any form. It is tiring to listen to or watch unfold and hardly healthy for the community as a whole.


    As there is no intent, and never has been, to split the community, I will allow a link to Soul's new site for hotseats in a particular stickied thread or two where relevant. No one here, staff or not, will face reprimand for playing hotseats here, there, or in both places. There is no stipulation of that in any way in the ToS nor should staff ever be forcing anyone one way or another. Play hotseats wherever you wish, the aim is to always be sure TWC as at least one outlet for that, even if not your preferred. Again though, not abiding by the ToS while here, or in any other way intentionally trying to cause troubles here even while off site, will be noted and dealt with accordingly.


    And one last time, please ask specific questions if you have them, and I will answer to the best of my abilities and what privacy allows. There is a good deal more I could write if I wanted to go greatly into depth, and that would indeed be a long post, and probably very hard to follow because of that. Hence why I am opting for anyone with specific questions on something that may not be here to ask them and go from there, not to dodge anything, but to simplify this and not waste any more time. You may also PM me if you wish, however do not expect any more details than would have been posted publicly just for doing so.


    The Emperor Protects,


  2. #2

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hader View Post
    I had left early without setting things up more properly, and whether that was the main catalyst for things that transpired this year could be up for debate, but I think I definitely dropped the ball either way. Additionally, I felt it unfair to the other hex that had to step in to take care of things, having less experience with the people and section, and adding just more work to their already heavy workload. This is why I stepped back into the GS hex role.
    This is underlining what has been missing throughout this imo, self responsibility - it's something everyone should consider taking to heart in the future as it has been sorely lacking in this.

    I believe it was Soul who addressed concerns by saying "I do represent staff" and should take that bit to heart with "serving the community in the right capacity and to not alienate it". Regardless of what people believe of Jadli whom I too have had issues with, this happened under them both and he failed alongside whatever feuds were going on - to solve it.

    That said, it's been a terrible spot for you to be in here Hader - I for one think you've done well or if uncharitable, as well as one could expect.

    Personally, I'm mostly just happy your attitude is one of non-intervention and limiting GS involvement.
    You will pursue a policy of only intervening when called upon to mediate or as a last resort I presume?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    You let it blind you, or - did I?

    Last edited by Mithridate; May 15, 2018 at 12:04 PM. Reason: mistype and image.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    I would first like to thank you Hader for taking your time to address this issue. These problems of the past few months have been quite a nuisance and distraction from the real reason everyone is here. To have fun and engage in a game we all mutually enjoy. In communities such as these there is bound to be disagreements and arguments, however when it becomes aimless slander just for the sake of getting one last lick in, or comment or whatever, it does nothing but hinder the progress of this great community. I personally think having a link to another website for hotseats just divides the hotseats and players, then spots have to get filled and its just allot of hassle for all involved, with literally 0 benefit to splitting the community. It also seems unfair if those who joined as admin on Jadli's site back in January were punished for doing so, while Soul gets a pass and an advertisement. I may have my facts mixed up in this case as i wasn't even involved in that situation really but thats what it seems like from my perspective. They chose to leave, as Soul and Para were never banned or anything like that. Why let them leech members and use the site from the community he on before leaving and saying it was dead, calling out the staff for allowing Jadli back etc...

  4. #4
    Parafix's Avatar I have this stick...
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    I resigned, i was not removed. Dont lie to the children now

  5. #5

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    It may be wise to lend some charitably to the man Parafix, if anything I'd appreciate if you tried to keep this civil - rather than goading everyone.

    As to your statement, I believe it to be true.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
    https://twitter.com/RitaPanahi/statu...48737210662912 <-- Unforgettable face.

  6. #6
    Hader's Avatar Things are very seldom what they seem. In my experience, they’re usually a damn sight worse.
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithridate View Post
    Personally, I'm mostly just happy your attitude is one of non-intervention and limiting GS involvement.
    You will pursue a policy of only intervening when called upon to mediate or as a last resort I presume?[spoiler]You let it blind you, or - did I?
    At the moment, yes, though the future of GS both here and abroad has yet to be set one way or another so I don't know yet what that may bring.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScotlandIsBest View Post
    I would first like to thank you Hader for taking your time to address this issue. These problems of the past few months have been quite a nuisance and distraction from the real reason everyone is here. To have fun and engage in a game we all mutually enjoy. In communities such as these there is bound to be disagreements and arguments, however when it becomes aimless slander just for the sake of getting one last lick in, or comment or whatever, it does nothing but hinder the progress of this great community. I personally think having a link to another website for hotseats just divides the hotseats and players, then spots have to get filled and its just allot of hassle for all involved, with literally 0 benefit to splitting the community. It also seems unfair if those who joined as admin on Jadli's site back in January were punished for doing so, while Soul gets a pass and an advertisement. I may have my facts mixed up in this case as i wasn't even involved in that situation really but thats what it seems like from my perspective. They chose to leave, as Soul and Para were never banned or anything like that. Why let them leech members and use the site from the community he on before leaving and saying it was dead, calling out the staff for allowing Jadli back etc...
    I have noted this don't worry; I don't want to jump the gun with anything involving bans either. Thank you for your perspective though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Parafix View Post
    I resigned, i was not removed. Dont lie to the children now
    If you had tried to resign an hour later, you would have been removed first. The distinction hardly matters at this point, except in the knowledge that regardless of your intent to resign, you would have been removed anyways.

  7. #7
    Parafix's Avatar I have this stick...
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    I broke no SND lol, you know ive got evidence of everything so dont try to manipulate people.

    Regarding my site, we havnt stolen on going games, those who joines us have been told they can partake in both if they so wish, including those involved in staffing.

    I have told anyone patricipating in seven realms not to attack TWC or repeat the same lines done from jadli and crew from burning twc hotseats down to the ground.

    I didnt want to put time into a community with people such as jadli or hannibal, i started somewhere to run my own games, as i said i would on TWC a few months back, more became involved than i expected, in which i have repeated that people can be involved with both.

    Ive also repeated that i wont be stealing my own games and projects even though they are struggling here.

  8. #8
    Gimli's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    I first joined Total War Center specifically to become part of the Third Age Total War Community. For a time, it was a pleasant surprise, the community was large, it had plenty of new topics out daily, but what it lacked was a Multiplayer Section. Well, one day, several of us came together, a few names such as The Norseman, Emperor of Hell, Obi Wan Asterix, and a few others, decided to host Third Age's first Hotseat Campaign. It was a thrill to say the least. We were as far as i consider, founding members of what would later lead into and become what is known as the Hotseating Community. Thus i have seen it all and been here quite a while, and seen many things unfold. Granted, i was not active for a good portion of my time here but i always observed.

    What brought me back to Hotseating in 2014 was SoulGamesInc's "Youngbloods" video posted on Youtube. Seeing such content restarted a fire of playing a competitive campaign but also enjoy fellowship, and community on TWC.

    When Dux retired as you might say, Soul had big shows to fill, and he for all intensive purposes put countless hours into the site, in creating new content, and revolutionizing the way Hotseating is done, but also how it is portrayed. He gave up for a time playing in Hotseats to manage the community, and to insure sufficient games are hosted for Newbloods, Middlebloods, and Youngbloods, often hosting and admining these games himself on top of his "Director/Overseerer" duties.

    What surprised me immediately is how efficient he was in managing, but how he constantly didn't have the tools to evolve as you could say. This would later prove to be his downfall, and likely the downfall of the community as a whole. He selflessly gave to this community, going above and beyond in all forms. Eventually, one particular player joined the ranks of Gaming Staff. This player constantly challenged Soul's oversight, rule(s), and how Gaming Staff was run. This became apparent on numerous occasions, in which i will spare you the details. The matter worsened when conflict arose from someone who constantly challenged authority started butting heads with someone like Parafix who for all intensive purposes is somewhat of a control freak.

    This person was allowed to lie, disobey direct authority, try to implement his own idea, and after numerous punishments showed no signs of guilt after trying to convince other members of GS, and admins to give him passwords.

    Eventually it became apparent there would be a tipping point, and whether it would be dealt with remained to be seen. When that tipping point arrived, the Director, Soul, didn't have the tools to deal with the matter. When he appealed to Hex to intervene, and provide stern leadership, the Hex administration backed down, and instead decided to hold this person to a temporary ban, rather than a permanent ban despite this persons constant will to enforce his vision, break every rule he could in order to gain power.

    Soul resigned because of the lack of leadership, and enforcement by the Hex's who put the needs of the few in front of the need's of the community. As much as i am a believer in equal blame in this matter, the more i delve into thought, the less I believe in it. Soul wasn't given the tools to manage the community he was in-trusted to Direct, and Oversee because he lacked the power to act in a situation which if handled right would've saved the TWC Hotseating Community. Those say Soul should've fixed this problem instead of let it linger, he tried on numerous occasions to "fix" it and on all occasions the Hex intervened giving Jadli second chance after second chance.

    _____

    Hader,

    Why wasn't Jadli permanently banned after numerous TOS violations, as well as his repeated disregard for authority, and his will to lie before all of this; and why above all that was he NOT permanently banned after stealing all the admin passwords, and various other things already mentioned. He constantly pursued and in-sighted confrontations with Parafix full well knowing he would receive a response, in which led to Parafix being removed from GS.

    If you were leaving, why did you not make Soul a member of the Hex in which he could be a key person to represent the community on the administration team rather than leave and let people who don't know the community try and admin it.

    As of now, there is no oversight in the hotseating community, no direction, no leadership, and no rule(s) enforcement. General Hotseating is filled with users maxed at admin capacity, as well as a blatant disregard for the rules put in place in which there are far to many hotseats for public demand, in turn, will result in mass problems should players leave.When will you appoint someone to actually lead the hotseating community again and provide new content, new leadership that Soul, and or Parafix would've provided should they have stayed?

    ___

    The whole source of this division, this problem results at the feet of one person only. All this leads back to one person who started everything, and in turn can deal with the consequences. Everyone has blame for letting this disease, this sickness fester in which it grew to a point that it resulted in half the community being ripped apart. We as a community failed to act.
    Last edited by Gimli; May 15, 2018 at 08:37 PM.
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  9. #9
    cowcow's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    here we go again lol

  10. #10
    themzr's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Quote Originally Posted by Parafix View Post
    I broke no SND lol, you know ive got evidence of everything so dont try to manipulate people.

    Regarding my site, we havnt stolen on going games, those who joines us have been told they can partake in both if they so wish, including those involved in staffing.

    I have told anyone patricipating in seven realms not to attack TWC or repeat the same lines done from jadli and crew from burning twc hotseats down to the ground.

    I didnt want to put time into a community with people such as jadli or hannibal, i started somewhere to run my own games, as i said i would on TWC a few months back, more became involved than i expected, in which i have repeated that people can be involved with both.

    Ive also repeated that i wont be stealing my own games and projects even though they are struggling here.
    lies you are currently trying to steal TWC games as we speak. As you’ve said before “I’ve got evidence of everything”.
    "I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion."

    ----- Alexander The Great


  11. #11
    Gimli's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Also, Hader, for what it's worth, I do not hold you responsible for what has transpired. You already know who my blame goes to. I hold you responsible and the Hex Administration for failing to act when this threatened the community. I commend you for trying to keep the community together, but some rifts cannot be healed. Also themzr and cowcow, please go crawl back into whatever hole you crept out to beg for mercy and be let back into Westeros Hotseating.
    Last edited by Gimli; May 15, 2018 at 08:45 PM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    This is productive

  13. #13
    Mergor's Avatar T H E | G O R
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Gimli or anyone, don't derail the thread please. There is no gain in starting an argument in which the only arguments are biased accusations and that the other person is lying.
    Last edited by Mergor; May 15, 2018 at 11:54 PM.

  14. #14
    misafeco's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    This is just sad and pathetic. So much drama about a simple game. I wonder how you guys deal with serious real life stuff.
    Hungary against the Nations - The Holy Roman Empire
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    I quite like Gimlis post, for me a clear disagreement arise around a couple things but otherwise seem level to me - Please keep it civil so progress is more likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by misafeco View Post
    This is just sad and pathetic. So much drama about a simple game. I wonder how you guys deal with serious real life stuff.
    Real life? What do you mean?
    Last edited by Mithridate; May 16, 2018 at 05:00 AM. Reason: twc lag, made only half a post.
    Don't be a prick, don't be a whiny little child - Stop White Genocide and Praise Jesus.

    Very nice, Getting a good picture everybody? So we look nice and handsome and thin? Thank you. -The God Emperor, creating world peace and unforgettable memes
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    I just find it extremely ironic/funny that glimi's reputation comment is "Glimi cant fight in here! , This is the Total War Room"
    Last edited by paladinbob123; May 16, 2018 at 05:51 AM.

  17. #17
    General Dragon.'s Avatar Champion of Dragons
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    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Quote Originally Posted by Parafix View Post
    I broke no SND lol, you know ive got evidence of everything so dont try to manipulate people.

    I have told anyone patricipating in seven realms not to attack TWC or repeat the same lines done from jadli and crew from burning twc hotseats down to the ground.
    So while you said this to others, you still went down on the path to post the 24 minute how to insult shamelessly video here and in the curia, also making a comment on said video for clarification and then saying you never wanted to attack TWC again.
    @Gimli
    I am pretty sure Hader just said it is already enough with the self-righteous comments but here we are again. Whatever you said is nothing but a twisted version of the truth to suit someones side againts another. Just stop it and leave.
    You were a core part of the hotseating community and that is the key word, you were. You might be here but you missing the big picture just as an old man who rambles and lives in the past, when the present and the future what matters.
    I also like how you think Soul run the whole community by all himself. Please steal every credit for him and blatantly ignore, that Soul never done anything major for main section other than ordering their GS to sometimes do this or that to make all sections seem as united, but apparently it seems like all of Jadlis modding work is done by Soul, my work is done by Soul, every non GS and former or current GS work is done by Soul, every admin work was done by Soul seems like Soul is a one man army, who somehow spending much of his actual time in Westeros section he still managed to revive the General section hotseating all by himself and only by himself, while we just stood there as witnesses and did nothing. I guess I was so good at doing nothing I managed to earn up to Golden chess piece award.

    I also find it funny that because Jadli didn't get banned permanently and you guys left, now that hader posted something you now think it is fair to throw a tantrum and blame hex for failing and asking a ban once more, yet you use in your reasoning that Jadli disobeying authority is the problem, but now you are doing the same, as not accepting Hex decision and now disregarding their decisions authority and of course blaming everything on a scapegoat rather than accept that you are also wrong and no side were right all the time, but of course we have to beg if we want to play in westeros again, "begging" what a laugh.


    @Hader
    So it does mean that people can send in their applications for GS, but when will be the time period when you will consider actual approval of joining? Right now there is atleast one GS for every section, making it that General will have 2 could ease some burden for Athelstan, but it is your call in the end.
    Last edited by General Dragon.; May 16, 2018 at 07:36 AM.


    "The Dragon is wise, a sage among the ignorant. He knows not all that glitters is gold."

  18. #18

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    lol....it does seem that all of Soul's supporters are a little unhinged at least the two I have clearly seen here...{just saying } It doesn't seem as if it is possible to have a clear and constructive dialogue with them at this time.....despite hader and jadli admitting some blame on there part..they hardly help there case , that soul was "blameless" ..if ever, the more they shout and rage that soul has been victimized, the more it seems that "soul" supporters seem completely biased in there outlook, which calls into question souls group and supporters. Are you supporters of hotseating and the community or are you just pal's of soul , just here to support a friend?

    I for one , just wish to play hotseats...if you wish to rage at the unfairness of things, please note that neither side [if sides you wish to define it] benefited from conflict. Frankly I am sick of your recriminations and totally biased views. If you wish to support Soul, in his new hotseat organisation, do so , and refrain from your ignorant raging here, and put your energies to good use in warfare there. For if you wish to fight on this forum , there is little gain , for anybody , to listen to either side spout the righteousness of there cause , where the blame was all around. If you truly believe that Soul is totally without blame in this conflict , then there is little you need to say here, and I advise you , if you wish to show soul your support , do so on his video , to increase his views etc.
    Last edited by paladinbob123; May 16, 2018 at 09:02 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Loose i've never played in a hotseat with you before, or anything, but to your point Para resigned correct? So why come back and start all this all of a sudden? Is it because seven realms has a very low population and you need more members for it to be active? If so. Why come back ranting and yelling and namecalling? It won't help anything. No one is going to be magically convinced by the namecalling that they are in fact wrong and you are right. And not to be an but i remember Jadli's site being rather active when he was banned. and TWC being rather dead. Not to say it is directly because of Jadli, but you guys do not give credit where credit is due and allot of the community was brought here by him and he has done allot of work for the community. As has SoulGamesInc and Parafix and Dragon and many others. But it seems some just like to see their own accomplishments and put a more weight to it than others' work.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Where now are the horse and the rider...

    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    And my opinion of Jadli was formed last year. He can only be described as a troublemaker, liar, and fraud. I left here then because of him and only came back because he was gone.
    [/B]
    {Sighs} That is indeed the very definition of "bias"

    It seems the callname of "Loose Cannon" suits you well

    As such , I understand you are supporting a friend , but such are your views , really for the community? Or are they personal? From your own comments , it is obviously the latter and as such , it is just sheer prejudice you speak off, which is not beneficial for the community.

    As for why I am posting in this thread, It is because I am tired of listening to your prejudice. If you were arguing a case to help/improve the community , it would prove interesting and constructive to listen too....but this is just partisanship

    As to your posting, to some degree , I would like them to stay [although of course , most of it is offensive , it does at least show , how poorly a case you make , and shows your prejudices, for others to see .. ]

    PBOB
    Last edited by paladinbob123; May 16, 2018 at 10:00 AM.

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