The CROWNS system

[j.a.luna]

Jurand for spanish faction and crown, you can use the words of ''Corona Ibérica'' for the union of Portugal and Spain or simply ''Corona de España'' for that is the spanish crown...
For the spanish tittle you could use ''Rey de España'' or '' Emperador de Hispania'' also this could be in latin

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, J.a., I've included them.
Are these expressions from the Middle Ages?

[j.a.luna]

Thanks, J.a., I've included them.
Are these expressions from the Middle Ages?

The crown of Spain was when the queen Isabel of Castille and Fernando of Aragon got married and founded the country of Spain and later the emperor Felipe II annexed Portugal so he had the crown of Iberia,but in general is more knowing as ''Corona de España'' and the king as ''Rey de España''

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Thanks, J.a., I've included them.
Are these expressions from the Middle Ages?

The crown of Spain was when the queen Isabel of Castille and Fernando of Aragon got married and founded the country of Spain and later the emperor Felipe II annexed Portugal so he had the crown of Iberia,but in general is more knowing as ''Corona de España'' and the king as ''Rey de España''

Late Middle Ages to be correct. "Corona de España", was born when Isabel I of Castilla and Fernando II of Aragón married, thereby creating the modern Spanish Monarchy and leaving behind the titles of the 7 forerunner Kingdoms:

- Castilla
- León
- Navarre
- Aragón
- Galicia
- Asturias
- and the titular "King of the Visigoths" that had been carried over the centuries.

But before that, the expression "King of Spain" was rarely used. Most iberian monarchs prior to 1469 (the year Isabel and Fernando married), that wanted to claim authority over the whole peninsula used the title "Emperor of all Spain" or "Emperor of all the Spains" that in latin is written "Imperator totius Hispaniae" between the years 970 and 1160, and again in 1300's (1312 - 1350).

Other titles like "Emperor in Galicia", "Emperor in León and Castille", "Emperor in Toledo" and "Emperor of Castille" were also used during the time period between 1090 and 1157 by the rulers of those territories, but most of these where not hereditary as their succesors rarely used the titles after their deaths.

[Jurand of Cracow]

But before that the expression "King of Spain" was rarely used. Most iberan monarchs prior to 1469 (the year Isabel and Fernando married) that wanted to claim authority over the pennsula used the title "Emperor of all Spain" or "Emperor of all the Spains" that in latin is written "Imperator totius Hispaniae" between 970 and 1160 and again in 1300's (1312 - 1350).

This sounds convincing, I'd go for it.
BTW - totius or totus?

[Lifthrasir]

Looks fine and logical to me as well

[Lord Komnenos]

· Potential new crowns (badly needed):


...... Tsar of Serbia – Serbia is in the same situation. A stop-gap solution – to make the faction playable – will be to make the Byzantium crown available to the Serbians with their set of conditions.

Now still have a plan for a crown of Serbia or in the future?
Following are some information might be useful about it:


Title of the ruler: veliki župan(Grand Prince)--> King of Serbia and Maritime Lands(since 1217 the Serbian Grand Principality was promoted into a kingdom)
Place of coronation: Ras
Name of the crown: Круна Стефана(crown of Stefan)
Pic for the crown(a real one): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%C4%87_14c.png

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

This sounds convincing, I'd go for it.
BTW - totius or totus?

I have checked twice already. All the material I dug out from my classnotes and internet research point to the name of the title as "Imperator Totius Hispaniae" in latin. Meaning literary on english "Emperor of all Spain", "Emperor of all the Spains" or "Emperor of all Hispania".

The official establishment of the title in the Iberian Peninsula, was by Alfonso VII of León (who ruled from 1126 until 1157) at his imperial coronation in 1135. The title had already been used since 970 as I pointed out on the previous post, but never on a hereditary basis or oficially cemented. When Alfonso VII succeded his mother Urraca of León, he inherited her imperial title of "Empress of all Spain" and also the title "Empress of Galicia" giving him two imperial crowns to cement his title as "Emperor of all Spain"; and the hereditary legality to officially add the titles to his power as King of León.

Here is a map of Alfonso's VII territories in late 1147 and his "Empire of León" as "Emperor of all Spain" (by this time also encompassing the title Emperor in Galicia):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- Note that both the Kingdom of Navarre and the Kingdom of Portugal, at this specific time were both vassals of Alfonso's VII Kingdom of León. Giving him more the reason to claim and enforce his title as "Imperator Totius Hispaniae". Of course as we know, both Portugal and Navarre rejected or simply ignored the vassalage since both kingdoms had their own respective Kings enforcing their own authorities and they simply acknowledge León's suzerainty in name only.

[Orkmann]

Hi JoC. While I am by no means a history expert, Hungary looks OK.

One thing to highlight about the Hungarian Crown is the massive cult grew around it, even since the early medieval times. According to the legend, King Saint Stephan got it from the pope when he converted to cristianity, and he offered the Crown, representing the whole country to the Virgin Mary on his deathbed (as he had no direct heir). Ever since it is considered a holy artifact which is not only symbolizing the authority of the King, but the whole country and ultimately the divine right of its ruler to the land of medieval Hungary. Due to its divine nature a king was not considered a legitimate ruler until he was crowned by the Holy Crown. Even Franz Joseph was not not considered fully legitimate (by nationalists) until he got crowned in 1867 - and he was de facto ruler since 1848. It's belief is so strong even today, that some political groups still follow the ideology and using it's as a pretext to form claims on neighboring countries. Historically it is associated with the medieval Greater Hungary, which includes Transylvania and the lands of today's Slovakia, Croatia, and Northern Serbia, and some can argue that even Galicia and Moldova. I would not consider Austria, Wallachia or other paets of the Balkan though.

If I would want to roleplay the Holy Crown, I would say make the requirements less strict in terms of number of provinces, but add a malus to the authority of the King, until he gots crowned. In terms of bonuses, adding some increase in piety might be justified, to emphasize the divine nature of business.

Finally, regarding the picture, the official theory is that is consist of two pieces, and the upper part was added later (maybe the late 12th century). There is also a cross on the top, which is even later addition, probly from the 16th century. But ultimately, I would say it is OK to use the pic you got, because we kind of lacking good photos from the 1100s.

Just my view, wrote it mostly from memory, but I hope you find it useful

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks, Orkmann!
I think you're right on Austria - not really a part of the Crown of St. Stephan. However, I also take into account the gameplay. And the reason for Austria is to make Hungary going to war with the HRR. Furthermore, it's very easy - from the point of Loyalty issues - for Hungary to get the crown: very compat area (just compare it with England, or even Poland). And iirc, Bela fought for the Babenberg legacy as well. All in all, I think we can add it.
Perhaps you can write a description in some free time :-)
cheers
JoC

[kingman1337]

Is there still work being done on this?

Is there any way I could help with the coding?

[toteking93]

I propose to create more titles to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game (I would do it myself if an administrator gives me the ok):

The interregional titles are special noble titles, each of them available only for certain factions, being acquired by a general when a faction conquers a certain number and type of regions, and for this the general must remain in a certain city during a turn. An interregional title gives a general higher bonuses than a simple regional title.


These titles are transferable from one general to another, but if a general already has another interregional title, he CAN NOT have one more. If instead, a general is a holder of a Regional Title / or a Title of the Court, then he could acquire the Interregional Title, and vice versa. When a general holder of an Interregional Title dies, the title becomes vacant and available for another general.


Count of Sicily
Available for: Aragonese, Venetian, Sicilian, Pisan, German, Byzantine, Castilla/Aragon.
Enclaves needed: Palermo, Siracusa.
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Palermo


King of Bohemia
Available for: French, Polish, German, Danish, Hungarian.
Enclaves needed: Prague, Olomouc.
Enclave in which the general must remain a turn: Prague


Supreme King of Ireland
Available for: English, French, Scottish, Danish and Norwegian.
Enclaves needed: Dublin,
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Dublin


Prince of Wales
Available for: all Catholic factions.
Enclaves needed: rebel castle in western England


King of Burgundy
Available for: Aragonese, Castellanos, French, English, German, Sicilian.
Enclaves needed: Lyon, Aix, Dijon.
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Lyon


Grand Duke of Lithuania
Available for: Hungarians, Poles, Danes, Germans.


Marquis of Tuscany
Available for: Germans, Venetians, Milaneses, Sicilianos, Pisanos.
Enclaves needed: Florence, Pisa.
Enclave in which the general must stay a turn: Florence.


Emperor TITLES: These Royal Titles can only be acquired by the Faction Leader (L.F.) when the capital of a Christian Kingdom is conquered and the faction that originally owned the title is defeated.


Holy Roman Emperor
Available for: Catholic Factions.
Faction to be eliminated: Holy Roman Empire
Titles that must necessarily have: King of Germany.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one turn: Rome

Holy Roman Emperor
Available for: Catholic Factions.
Faction to be eliminated: Holy Roman Empire
Titles that must necessarily have: King of Germany.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one shift: Rome if it is catholic (no dentro de la ciudad sino en la region) or own capital if it is excomunnicated

Emperador Latino de Oriente
Available for: Catholic Factions.
Faction that must be eliminated: Byzantine Empire.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one turn: Constantinople.

Grand Prince of Russia
Available for: Russians, Novgorodians, Cumans.
Enclaves needed:


Caliph of Islam
Available for: Islamic Factions.
Necessary sites: Baghdad, Medina, Cairo.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one shift: Baghdad.


Qaysar î Rum
Available for: Islamic Factions.
Necessary enclaves: Constantinople, Adrianople, Thessaloniki, Athens, Monemvasia.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one turn: Constantinople.


Lord of ¼ and a half of the Eastern Roman Empire
Available for: Venetians.
Enclaves needed: Venice, Crete, Adrianople, Naupact, Monemvasia.
City in which the L.F. must stay at least one shift: Venice.


Rex totius Angliae and Dennemarchiae et Norregiae et partis Suovorum
Available for: Denmark, Norway, England.


Emperor Hispaniae: Castilla, Aragon, Portugal
Necessary enclaves: all the inicial cities of the moors in Hispania
City in: Granada
Cit

[Jurand of Cracow]

I propose to create more titles to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game (I would do it myself if an administrator gives me the ok)

I think you should ask Lifthrasir.

If you're interested in such titles you may have a look at Deus Lo Vult mod, there're many similar things. I also suspect that Bellum Crucis have a few (but I've played 6.3 long time ago). Actually, the SSHIP have quite elaborated system of the titles and there're a few ideas "to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game" at the beginning of this thread.

[toteking93]

I think you should ask Lifthrasir.

If you're interested in such titles you may have a look at Deus Lo Vult mod, there're many similar things. I also suspect that Bellum Crucis have a few (but I've played 6.3 long time ago). Actually, the SSHIP have quite elaborated system of the titles and there're a few ideas "to give more "meaning" to the expansions or conquests of the nations in the game" at the beginning of this thread.

Yes, they are titles of bell crucis 6.3.


The mod in that aspect is very good. I think Sship is much better than Bellum crucis but that aspect is better than Sship and it would be nice to "put it / adapt" it in. Is not there some way to do it? To put in contact with the developers of the bellum so that they would yield it for Sship since Bellum crucis is dead?


I do not say to put them all, which would be fine, but to submit to everyone's opinion which of all the titles to include in this since they already had integrated the crowns by levels in a very good way.

[Jurand of Cracow]

The SSHIP already has 1. provincial titles, 2. functional titles (a few titles for the court), 3. crowns. In my opinion, it's enough and logical, but you may make a submod, I think, if you fancy.

[toteking93]

Hello everyone, I have incorporated in my sship the following in relation to the HRE. Mention that they are divided into 2, those that do not need territory (only the city of investiture) because they were earned by rights and others that if they need it because they have to dominate the territory of the crown.


1-BY RIGHT.


-A) King of the Romans "Romanorum rex semper Augustus": considered as an elected emperor waiting to be crowned by the pope or as the heir of the emperor appointed in life by the emperor himself. For the emperor, he governed waiting for him to be called emperor by the pope, (ATTENTION rex teutonicorum is a designation or pejorative with which the pope referred to the emperor during the investiture lawsuit).


It does not need to have "x" number of territories because historically it was not given by territoriality but by rights.


Place of coronation: Frankfurt


B) Emperor of the HRE "Romanorum imperator semper augustus": title of emperor granted by the Pope. It has to be counted first to access this title to that of "rex romanorum". To get it to go to the province of Rome so that the pope crowns you emperor (this will only happen if you are not excommunicated).


Place of coronation: region of Rome
A script called "coronation script" has been made by which upon receiving the crown it will appear as an event for all the factions announcing the new emperor and his alliance with the pope)


-Emperator of the HRE (b): another option has been added for the crown of the emperor of the sacrum. It is the same as the previous one with the difference that the pope is not necessary (this will only happen if you are excommunicated)


Place of coronation: Frankfurt


2-By territory:


A) King of Bohemia will need the territories of Prague and Olomouc.
Place of coronation: Prague


B) King of Italy: all the cities of Italy will be needed with the exception of Rome.
Place of coronation: Rome

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hi toteking,
Could you just post your scripts here in a spoiler? This would be useful for me to get my bearings ;-)

On your changes: when would the title "Romanorum rex semper Augustus" apprear in the sources? I thought it was only in 15/16th century?
Joc

[toteking93]

Sorry for the delay, but I had to stop with everything related to the game to prepare for the exams, in September I will finish what was stated here and publish it:


The term you refer to and which appeared in the 16th century is not that of "Romanorum Imperator Semper Augustus" (since the first one to use it was Frederick II) but "ELECTUS Romanorum Imperator semper Augustus", that was the one used for the first time by Maximiliano I.


The article I put has errata in the titles due to the translator and copy / paste errors, here I put it well written with my primitive English:


-Rey of the Romans: "Romanorum Rex" was the term chosen by Henry III in 1040 to designate the dignitary of the HRE who was elected waiting to be crowned Emperor and, momentarily, should comply with the title of King. He chose this "title" to counteract the pejorative connotation of the pope to refer to the future German Emperor "rex teutonicorum". There were several "Emperors" of the Sacrum who never got to be officially crowned Emperor and during all their life they only held this title. THE MOST IMPORTANT: the imperial crown IF IT COULD BE HEREDITARY (in the sense that the current emperor, in life, could designate his successor) and in that case the heir received the title of "Romanorum Rex" or, on the other hand, in case the emperor had not chosen heir before he died IF "Romanorum Rex" was chosen to refer to an elected Emperor waiting to be crowned as such.


EMPEROR OF THE EMPIRE SACRO: "Romanorum imperator augustus" As of Otto III, the emperors were named as such. Since Theophan, mother of Otto III, Byzantine princess, recognized the inequality between the title of basileus and the German emperor, thus, he added the word romanorum in his title to elevate the category of his son to that of the Byzantine emperor Basil II, who He was not a relative of his. Subsequent emperors continued to mention their Roman character to affirm the supremacy of their Caesaropapist position vis-a-vis the papal hierocracy. I enclose a list where you will see how everyone uses that base from now on but adding something else to it: Otto III (Otto favente clementia romanorum imperator augustus), Henry IV (Heinricus divina favente clementia tercius Romanorum imperator augustus), Frederick I (Fredericus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator augustus), Frederick II (Fridericus secundus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator semper augustus), Louis IV (Ludovicus Dei gratia Romanorum imperator et semper augustus), Carlos IV (Karolus quartus divina favente clementia Romanorus imperator sem.

Now, there were times when "rival kings" coexisted in the Empire of the Sacrum (Oton IV and Frederick II, Ricardo Cornwall and Alfonso de Castilla, etc.) having a "Romanorum Rex" and a "Romanorum Imperator Augustus" ..

So far the historical info (very short) because it was more logical logically xD

In my opinion, you should give the title of "Romanorum Rex" to who in the game will inherit the crown. We should call "Romanorum Imperator Augustus": A) to "romanorum rex" if it is crowned in Rome by the pope or in Aachen / Franckfurt (that is debatable) by the electors or, B) my idea is to make another crown of "Romanorum Imperator Augustus "but with the following conditions (first that there is no longer a Romanorum Imperator Augustus and second; it is the one that I am not clear about but I would like the second codition to have the" traitor "trigger feature that already exists) then if it were e Franckfurt or Rome would be elected Emperor and therefore the king of the Romans could no longer be elected Emperor.


That is my idea and it is perfectly possible to implement it in the game (I would finish it in September which is when I will have time) what do you think?

[toteking93]

* in case the emperor has not chosen the heir before he dies YES would be designated among the electors "Romanorum Rex"

[toteking93]

Sorry, extended list: Otón III (Otto divina favente clementia romanorum imperator augustus), Enrique IV (Heinricus divina favente clementia tercius Romanorum imperator augustus), Federico I (Fredericus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator augustus), Federico II (Fridericus secundus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator semper augustus), Luis IV (Ludovicus Dei gratia Romanorum imperator et semper augustus), Carlos IV (Karolus quartus divina favente clementia Romanorum imperator semper augustus).