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Thread: The CROWNS system

  1. #61
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Komnenos View Post
    I think the new one is better. The old one is lack of the distinctive feature of two lappets of pearls and jewels hung down on the cheeks.
    I'm disappointed with your lack of enthusiasm . I think the old one is a phantasy one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldgrimr View Post
    Right now it's a bit of a mix. Countries are named in Latin while faction leaders have native names. Since you're the big man, I'll let you decide, and I'll work on it.

    Sadly I cannot find any preserved crowns that were in use during the Kalmar Union, or during the times of medieval Denmark. The only thing I could find was Erik the Holy of Sweden's crown.
    Given that we're probably able to find (all?) the names in Latin, and it would be more difficult for the local ones, lets make the following rule:
    - we're looking for both names: Latin and local;
    - we put all the names on the webpage;
    - we'll probably implement the Latin ones, but if there'll be the future decision for the local, we'd chose the local.

    Thanks for the pic - I've uploaded it on the webpage.

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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    What's the point to make the job twice???
    Let Elgrimr carry on with the "mix" and then correct only the one we think they have to. I can't see the point to make them once in Latin and then to re-make them (or some of them) in native language
    Regarding the native languages, the main issue is to be able to use the right font for special letters.
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    I'm currently working on Scandinavia. Just wondering, is it supposed to represent the Kalmar Union (three kingdoms under one king), or is it meant to represent one great alternate history kingdom?

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    Default Re: Crown of Britain (England, Scotland)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    crown_england

    Current situation:
    Name: King of Britain
    Effects: Authority 3, Command 1, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1.
    Number cities: 8
    Factions having access:
    Concept: British islands. Achieved in the modern times, but convincing. The French territories belonging to the English faction should indeed not be included.
    How easy to get: very easy: after conquering one other faction it’s available for Scotland and England. And the territories are in the usual, inevitable direction of expansion.
    Provinces missing: Caen is now Norwich (missing), Nottingham is now Lincoln (redundant-missing), Aberdeen is now Coimbra (redundant) – which means you cannot get the crown.
    Is pic correct: ?

    Modifications’ ideas
    New concept: no change: the British islands plus Normandy. The problem is that it's easy to get. Maybe a kind of additional requirement would be added? A successful crusade? Or maybe more provinces in France?
    Gameplay perspective: easy to get: you need to fight the other British faction and keep / gain just Normandy on the other side of the Channel.
    Name of the crown: in French or Latin?
    Title of the ruler: ?
    Effects: Authority 2, Law 1, LocalPopularity 1 and tbd
    Provinces: add Rouen, Norwich and Lincoln, remove Nottingham and Aberdeen (that are not somewhere else on the map, not in Britain).
    Number provinces: 10.
    Place of coronation: London.
    Building required for coronation: Cathedral.
    Factions able to get it: Scotland, England.
    Pic to be used: tbc.
    Ideas for distant future: none
    Description: to be developed by the players.
    Memo for future: has this crown been analyzed thoroughly?: Partially.



    Current code in EDA and EA:
    Code:
    {crown_england}             King of Britain
    {crown_england_desc}  Entitled as King of all Britain.
    {crown_england_effects_desc}   +3 Authority, +1 Command, +1 to law (improves public order), +1 to popularity (improves public order)
     
    and FactionType england 
     and I_SettlementOwner London = england
     and I_SettlementOwner Nottingham = england
     and I_SettlementOwner York = england
     and I_SettlementOwner Bristol = england
     and I_SettlementOwner Caernarvon = england
     and I_SettlementOwner Edinburgh = england
     and I_SettlementOwner Aberdeen = england
     and I_SettlementOwner Dublin = england
    New code:
    To be developed after discussion in this thread.

    Really good idea for a mod

    With regard to above not sure there was ever a medieval King of "Great Britain" but you did have Kings of Scotland, England and King or Lord of Ireland. If you want it historically accurate, I'd suggest you split the crowns here as follows;
    King of Scotland - control both regions in Scotland - crowned in Edinburgh
    King of England - control all regions in England + Wales - crowned in London
    King or Lord of Ireland - control the one region in Dublin - crowned in Dublin

    If memory serves Henry VIII called himself King of England & Ireland (and France as well!).

    Good luck with the mod!

  5. #65
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldgrimr View Post
    I'm currently working on Scandinavia. Just wondering, is it supposed to represent the Kalmar Union (three kingdoms under one king), or is it meant to represent one great alternate history kingdom?
    That's actually the issue I have there. If you consider the Norsemen community, we have these areas:


    But that's much earlier thzn the period covered by SSHIP (mostly 8th, 9th and 10th centuries).

    Historically, and for a short period there was also the North Sea Empire (see Cnut the Great):

    That's also earlier than SSHIP (beginning of the 11th century).

    And Finally the Kalmar Union:

    But that covers the late period of SSHIP (from 1397 AD to 1523 AD).

    From my opinion, if we stick to the culture and language, that should be only Scandinavia (Norway, Sweden and Denmark). That would be a "fancy" one.
    If we want to represent the Kalmar Union, then Finland has to be added to the areas mentioned above. That would be a representation of a late period crown.
    If we want to represent the North Sea Empire, that should include Norway, Denmark and England. That would be a representation of an early crown.

    What would be interesting to know is where the factions tried to expand during the 12th-13th centuries. From what I could find, they didn't expand much but there were quite a lot of "internal" disputes. If right then the 1st option above seems the best even if not real.
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  6. #66
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    What's the point to make the job twice???
    Let Elgrimr carry on with the "mix" and then correct only the one we think they have to. I can't see the point to make them once in Latin and then to re-make them (or some of them) in native language
    This is exactly what I meant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eldgrimr View Post
    I'm currently working on Scandinavia. Just wondering, is it supposed to represent the Kalmar Union (three kingdoms under one king), or is it meant to represent one great alternate history kingdom?
    What's the difference in practical terms?

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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Sorry Joc, I often misunderstand your posts, my bad
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    Eldgrimr's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    This is exactly what I meant.


    What's the difference in practical terms?
    Mostly the map areas and names. Personally, I don't think the Baltics should be included, as they weren't taken by the Swedes until centuries later. If it's meant to represent for the Kalmar Union, the historical title for the King would be "King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway, the Wends and the Goths", or more practically "King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway", while if it represented an alternative singular kingdom, the title could be "Norse King" or something similar. Since it's your project, I'll let you decide.

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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    I've proposed King of the Norsemen on the previous page. Could it do the trick?
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, from the Heresy Vault of the Imperial House of Hader

  10. #70
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    The question is whether you want to make the crowns matter for the gameplay, or you want it to be irrelevant for a player, and be there just for chrome. I think I've described it in the 2nd and 3rd posts.


    The crowns will matter for the gameplay only if after getting them the player will be relaxed of one of the game constraints. In this case is the fall of loyalty away from the capital.


    The prepared ingame information says:


    Code:
    "{CROWNS_BODY}  In the Middle Ages a major reason for rulers failing to create big empires were disloyal nobles. When the rich and powerful found themselves far away from the capital, they very often tried to establish their own rule in the provinces. Only unquestioned authority and legitimacy of a king could prevent them from rebelling. For many kings, one of the available tools to acquire more legitimacy was to get crowned.\n   This phenomenon is reflected in the SSHIP gameplay. A Faction Leader may acquire a crown of his faction and enjoy both its direct benefits (usually +2 Authority, +1 Law, +1 LocalPopularity and +2 LineOfSight), and a boost to generals’ loyalty. Indeed, distance to capital penalties are reduced for generals with a crowned Faction Leader. Plotters and usurpers also appear less frequently under a crowned Faction Leader. Therefore a good mid-game goal for the player may be to attain the crown of his faction.\n(You may find the requirements of getting the crown among the Faction Leader’s traits).
    {CROWNS_TITLE}Your way to glory!"

    Code:
    {No_Crown_High_Requirements}I want to be the King!
    {No_Crown_High_Requirements_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has very high (6+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
    {No_Crown_High_Requirements_effects_desc}\nThe generals lose Loyalty fast if they are away from the capital.  Plotters and usurpers are more likely to appear.
    {No_Crown_High_Requirements_gain_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has very high (6+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
    {No_Crown_Low_Requirements}I want to be the King as my father was!
    {No_Crown_Low_Requirements_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has good (3+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
    {No_Crown_Low_Requirements_effects_desc}\nThe generals lose Loyalty fast if they are away from the capital.  Plotters and usurpers are more likely to appear.
    {No_Crown_Low_Requirements_gain_desc}This man ambitions go beyond what he's already achieved. He wants to reunite all lands belonging to his forefathers (or are these thoughts just his phantasies?). To claim the Crown of his nation he must conquer these lands, has good (3+) Authority and Piety, be a legitimate ruler (not a regent nor a usurper), be physically and mentally healthy, has less than 8 ancillaries. He must then go to the faction's sacred city where the appropriate temple is built. After six-months preparations he'll be crowned there. From that moment on his rule will get such a boost to legitimacy that plotting nobles and potential usurpers will hide in their caves, while the honest nobles will be even more loyal. He, the great King, will be then able to embark on further conquest - to the far away lands.
    {Crowned_king}This is the King!
    {Crowned_king_desc}This man owns all territories that belonged to his forefathers. He has been ceremonially crowned to be the King of the faction. He has gained enormous legitimacy and his nobles have sworn loyalty to him. Now they are less likely to defect even when they're away from the ruler's watchful eye.
    {Crowned_king_effects_desc}\nThe generals lose Loyalty due to the distance from the capital much slower. Plotters and usurpers appear less frequently.
    {Crowned_king_gain_desc}This man owns all territories that belonged to his forefathers. He has been ceremonially crowned to be the King of the faction. He has gained enormous legitimacy and his nobles have sworn loyalty to him. Now they are less likely to defect even when they're away from the ruler's watchful eye.

    If you want to make it relevant for the gameplay then:
    - the set of provinces should provide some challenge - not only the easiest neighboring provinces but something requiring effort, like naval invasion or an attack on a strong enemy;
    - this means that the set of provinces should also include "ambitions" - not only provinces which created the core of the kingdom but also some "ambitions" of the rulers - either achieved at a point of time in history or not;
    - they should be balanced across the factions - not one faction with 29 provinces and the other 3, but all between, say, 12 and 18.

    But yes, it can be possible left irrelevant for the gameplay, then King of England with 4 crowns, or simple Scandinavian with a few. And other crowns as well - of Poland would be with 5.

  11. #71
    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Why not mix both: having "lesser crowns" - 4 to 5 provinces - to represent the fact that the ruler has gather his whole faction/people/culture under one leader ship. From there, we can add "upper crowns" as you mentioned - 12 to 18 provinces - to represent th leaders' ambitions.
    Basically, it's just a question of balance between bonuses and penalties. For instance, if you reach the lesser crown level, you get access to some authority bonus. If you reach the upper one, you can get access to some units from the roster of the conquered area but you keep having a bad reputation as your neighbours are becoming suspicious concerning your ambitions.
    For instance, playing as Aragon, you can conquer the whole Iberic peninsula (lesser crown). That would give you more authority, etc... Let's supposed that we add the Maghreb, Corsica/Sardaigna and Sicily for the upper one, and if done, you could recruit some Almohad and Normans units (as AoR and also based on happiness and religion rates to add some spice and to keep some balance in the gameplay).
    That's just a rough idea. It needs to be polished but you get the principle
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  12. #72
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Why not mix both: having "lesser crowns" - 4 to 5 provinces - to represent the fact that the ruler has gather his whole faction/people/culture under one leader ship. From there, we can add "upper crowns" as you mentioned - 12 to 18 provinces - to represent th leaders' ambitions.
    Basically, it's just a question of balance between bonuses and penalties. For instance, if you reach the lesser crown level, you get access to some authority bonus. If you reach the upper one, you can get access to some units from the roster of the conquered area but you keep having a bad reputation as your neighbours are becoming suspicious concerning your ambitions.
    For instance, playing as Aragon, you can conquer the whole Iberic peninsula (lesser crown). That would give you more authority, etc... Let's supposed that we add the Maghreb, Corsica/Sardaigna and Sicily for the upper one, and if done, you could recruit some Almohad and Normans units (as AoR and also based on happiness and religion rates to add some spice and to keep some balance in the gameplay).
    That's just a rough idea. It needs to be polished but you get the principle
    That's perfectly possible.
    I think it's better to do it in stages, otherwise nothing will come out.
    For now, in the SSHIP there're these upper crowns - 12-18 provinces, as I've described laboriously in this thread for each crown. The changes require little work - some chrome: names of the titles, possibly pics, possibly coronation ceremony; and also the choice of the provinces. The benefits are in the code of triggers for this Far/Near Loyalty.
    Then we may add these 4-5 provinces, with bonuses for kings authority. We may also link it with access to the units or bad reputation.
    (besides, the Iberian peninsula is already 18 provinces...)

  13. #73
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Don't be pedantic Joc
    That was just an example to illustrate the idea

    Ok, let's start as you have proposed
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  14. #74
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Then I'd propose to keep the names devised some time ago by Eldgrimr:
    Name of the crown: Norrœn Krone
    Title of the ruler: Norrœnkonungr


    And the set of provinces that reflect the aspirations of the rulers:
    Provinces: current 8, Kalmar, Finland, Meklemburg, Estonia. (it's 12, the minimum number).
    Coronation should be in Roskilde or Lund?

    What about the text, Eldgrimr?

  15. #75
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    ^^ This is almost more suitable for the lower crown rather than the upper one IMO.
    Considering that it has to be quite difficult to achieve and the amount of provinces requiered, I'd go for something quite opposite somehow:

    Title: Emperor/King of the North Sea or King of the Norsemen and of the English (these are just proposals).
    Provinces: Norway (Bergen and Oslo), Skara, Denmark (Lund, Roskilde), Ribe, Kalmar, Sigtuna, Visby, England (Norwich, Lincoln, York, London, Bristol), Ireland.
    Coronation: not sure, Lund or London

    That gives 15 provinces to conquier, including naval invasions. Quite accurate considering what Cnut the Great did at his time.

    Thought?
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  16. #76
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    For the game mechanics: the triggers for FarLoyalty depend on the distance. The British islands are slightly too far (in M2TW map system) from Scandinavia: I fear they will fire before England is taken. Actually, it's the very reason to get the crown for a Scandinavian leader: to be able to jump on the British islands.

    "A Faction Leader may acquire a crown of his faction and enjoy both its direct benefits (usually +2 Authority, +1 Law, +1 LocalPopularity and +2 LineOfSight), and a boost to generals’ loyalty. Indeed, distance to capital penalties are reduced for generals with a crowned Faction Leader. Plotters and usurpers also appear less frequently under a crowned Faction Leader. Therefore a good mid-game goal for the player may be to attain the crown of his faction"

    On history: the politics of expansion of whole period in high- and late Middle Ages (and later on as well) of Denmark (with Norway) and Sweden was directed towards the Baltics. Therefore I'd feel it more historical if Finland and Pommern are added.

    Furthermore, it seems to me that the creation of Union of Kalmar is a historically reasonable goal. It feels right for the SSHIP to me. I think it should be relevant for both Norway and Denmark, the union was the creation of these entities (with Sweden)

    If you strongly feel that Norway should expand towards England, the solution might be to have different sets of triggers for Norway and Sweden: Norwegian with England, and Danish with the Baltics.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; May 26, 2018 at 07:57 AM.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    If we're going for Norse King/crown, I would suggest:
    Norrœn(n?) krúna (krone is too modern) - Not sure if there should be one or two N, since some sources spell Norrœn, and some spell Norrœnn. Most sources I can find have one N though, so the safe way would probably be that.
    Norrœn(a)konungr - I'm not sure, but Norrœnakonungr might be more grammatically correct, since the sagas that talk about kings usually have it like that. For example, Norðmannakonungr (Norwegian king), Danakonungr (Danish king) and Svíakonungr (Swedish king).
    Last edited by Eldgrimr; May 26, 2018 at 07:21 AM.

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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    For the game mechanics: the triggers for FarLoyalty depend on the distance. The British islands are slightly too far (in M2TW map system) from Scandinavia: I fear they will fire before England is taken. Actually, it's the very reason to get the crown for a Scandinavian leader: to be able to jump on the British islands.

    On history: the politics of expansion of whole period in high- and late Middle Ages (and later on as well) of Denmark (with Norway) and Sweden was directed towards the Baltics. Therefore I'd feel it more historical if Finland and Pommern are added.

    Furthermore, it seems to me that the creation of Union of Kalmar is a historically reasonable goal. It feels right for the SSHIP to me. I think it should be relevant for both Norway and Denmark, the union was the creation of these entities (with Sweden)

    If you strongly feel that Norway should expand towards England, the solution might be to have different sets of triggers for Norway and Sweden: Norwegian with England, and Danish with the Baltics.
    If you want the Kalmar Union, there actually is a title for the king that is found in several sources, though it is in Latin.
    Rex Dacie Suecie et Norwegie (King of Denmark, Sweden and Norway)

  19. #79
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    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    Kalmar Union happened far too late. If you play an early era with Denmark or Norway, you can achieve that before reaching the end of the 12th century, so about 200 years in advance.
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  20. #80

    Default Re: CF: Crowns' fix: modification of the Crowns in the SSHIP

    I agree with this fully. Sound amazing

    Currently I rearely get a "Crown", usually I have to add them manually via the TotalWarShell because they don't always trigger.


    Also should the "crown_spain" description or title be "Emperor of all Spain" since Alfonso (Urraca before him if I am not mistaken) claimed that title in 1135 and his descendants continued the practice for at least another century.

    I also think the Abbasids deserved their own "crown" since they used to rule all of the muslim world (de facto and "spiritually" in the image of the Caliph of Islam). If a player manages to capture a large portion of the muslim world as them maybe he can get a crown representing the revivial of the Abbassid Caliphate as the ruling muslim power of the world (like it was centuries ago).

    Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by Pyres Δt Varanasi; May 27, 2018 at 11:37 AM.

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