[2018-XVIII] [Citizen Referral] SoulGamesInc - Appeal

[General Brewster]

SoulGamesInc has appealed the result of Removal of Rank for his citizen referral. The citizenry now votes on whether to uphold, overturn, change the ruling of the further action thread. The original referral thread and further action thread are now accessible. Please discuss the case in this thread.

The regulations and procedures can be referenced here and below.

⁹ The Curator posts the original private Referral, and the further action thread in the Questiones Perpetuae, and opens a new poll thread with the options to keep, overturn or change the ruling, or abstain.
The poll lasts for four days. If the Citizenry votes to change the punishment, the Curator opens a second poll for four days. The options are all punishments excluding the original punishment, and abstention.
A simple majority of non-abstaining votes is required for the first vote. In the case of a vote to either increase or decrease punishment, in the second vote, the option with the highest number of votes is the punishment given. Where two options have the same number of votes, the punishment given is determined by the Multiple Transferable Vote System.

The Censors are allowed to defend their standpoints and discuss here, however they are not allowed to vote anything else than abstain.
SoulGamesInc is no longer a citizen and cannot participate in the proceedings.
The referrer is neither allowed to vote anything but abstain.

[Commissar Caligula_]

Voted. I'll repeat my arguments from the other thread.

Personally I really disagree with removing SoulGamesInc's citizenship. Soul made that video for his Youtube subscribers to explain why he had stopped posting TWCenter hotseats after a 6 year history of posting them.
In addition, Soul did not post the video on TWCenter. Parafix did.

If removal of citizenship is not warranted after a member makes a video where he name calls other members of that site to a degree that would get you heavily infracted I don't know what does warrant it.

The fact that the name calling wasn't conducted on TWC. It was off-site, and no-one would have known about it if it hadn't been posted here (which Soul had no part in). You shouldn't be able to be infracted or whatever for stuff you do off-site, its just a ridiculous premise. Any argument that "its been done in the past before" is a terrible argument, there's absolutely no reason to stick with it and lots of reasons to change the procedures.

[izzi]

I am always against citizenship referral. Only when it's really extreme. I know there are consequences of all of our actions, but i think that if we talked calmly towards him and diplomatically, we should have found a consensus to this issue. I will vote for overturn, because i believe in a more diplomatic manner. If you are frustrated sometimes, you say sometimes things that you don't mean always. Problems come when we don't look actively for a solution, and if we are humble enough to do so. Be careful guys, that we don't look to fast to punish someone. Now off course, i wasn't there, so in theory i shouldn't say anything about it. But this is what i believe in. Hope you understand.

[General Brewster]

There was a slight mistake with the poll, it has been fixed.

Voted. I'll repeat my arguments from the other thread.

Personally I really disagree with removing SoulGamesInc's citizenship. Soul made that video for his Youtube subscribers to explain why he had stopped posting TWCenter hotseats after a 6 year history of posting them.
In addition, Soul did not post the video on TWCenter. Parafix did.The fact that the name calling wasn't conducted on TWC. It was off-site, and no-one would have known about it if it hadn't been posted here (which Soul had no part in). You shouldn't be able to be infracted or whatever for stuff you do off-site, its just a ridiculous premise. Any argument that "its been done in the past before" is a terrible argument, there's absolutely no reason to stick with it and lots of reasons to change the procedures.

I'm disappointed you don't even wait for the censors to share their views and just vote right off the bat.

Off-site material has, since I've been a member, always been admissible in referrals. It's awfully easy to disregard it and say it's ok for a citizen to scold other members and say "hey not this site so I don't care" Even though the content has EVERYTHING to do with the site, it's operation and it's integrity. It's far too easy to say it shouldn't concern us.

[Hannibal2001]

Voted. I'll repeat my arguments from the other thread.

Personally I really disagree with removing SoulGamesInc's citizenship. Soul made that video for his Youtube subscribers to explain why he had stopped posting TWCenter hotseats after a 6 year history of posting them.
In addition, Soul did not post the video on TWCenter. Parafix did.The fact that the name calling wasn't conducted on TWC. It was off-site, and no-one would have known about it if it hadn't been posted here (which Soul had no part in). You shouldn't be able to be infracted or whatever for stuff you do off-site, its just a ridiculous premise. Any argument that "its been done in the past before" is a terrible argument, there's absolutely no reason to stick with it and lots of reasons to change the procedures.

The purpose of the video was not to give an explanation, it was just hatred towards other members of TWC described through numerous insults adressed to them and the site. What does it matter if the video was posted or not on TWC? It has a direct connection to the site and members of it that in this case has only a bad influence, promoting hate speech and a bad image to the site as I already specified in Townhall.

It affects every member as Soul did nothing but making a horrible image of the site publicly. What matters even more is that he is an ex-staff. He by all means should have been a model and not say such words in the first place. If we ignore all this what will it become of the standards we impose on the Staff and Citizens?

The Censors have made a good decision in my opinion that should be kept and not debated on grounds like this. No matter what excuse Soul brings, the harm is done and he brought it on himself by making the last 2 videos about TWC.

[Pontifex Maximus]

The purpose of the video was not to give an explanation, it was just hatred towards other members of TWC described through numerous insults adressed to them and the site. What does it matter if the video was posted or not on TWC? It has a direct connection to the site and members of it that in this case has only a bad influence, promoting hate speech and a bad image to the site as I already specified in Townhall.

It affects every member as Soul did nothing but making a horrible image of the site publicly. What matters even more is that he is an ex-staff. He by all means should have been a model and not say such words in the first place. If we ignore all this what will it become of the standards we impose on the Staff and Citizens?

The Censors have made a good decision in my opinion that should be kept and not debated on grounds like this. No matter what excuse Soul brings, the harm is done and he brought it on himself by making the last 2 videos about TWC.

Agreed, and for this reason I vote to uphold. In his expletive-riddled diatribe where he attributes all his woes to the "inaction and incompetence" of TWC staff and hex, which has garnered over 1,000 views and 76 likes as of this post, he counsels against using TWC or participating in its various activities. Indeed, he has set up a competitor website which he has been advertising on TWC encouraging people to leave the functioning hotseat forum (and it is functioning fine, despite his absence. He seems unwilling to view himself as anything but the essential cog in the hotseat machine whose absence will cause the immediate cessation of activity in that forum. This is a common mistake among the egotistical who consider themselves irreplaceable.) He isn't appealing this decision because he values citizenship or TWC. He's moved off site and doesn't want to be a part of this community any more. He has initiated this appeal because he has some forlorn hope that publicizing all of this will advance his smear campaign of exposing injustice and the underbelly of TWC. He sees himself as a Christ figure who has been constantly mistreated but that the truth will be laid bare and vindicate his decisions all along because for him it all boils down to the ongoing feud he has with another member which he refuses to drop and insists on involving every aspect of the site where he has influence to weigh in on things. Well, be careful what you wish for.

As for the argument that his off site actions should not come into play on TWC, it should have been foreseeable to him in the creation of the video that since he has subscribers from TWC, the video would end up being posted on TWC and having a negative impact. He does not have clean hands.

Stripping him of citizenship for these actions is common sense and probably the least of his worries. If I had anything to say about it I would be contemplating a lengthy ban from the TWC.

[Aikanár]

Is it just me or my bowser or did I miss the posts of the censores where they provide their reasoning for the option chosen? I would have expected that to be posted alongside the option chosen in the further action thread.

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

I'll await what the censors have to say.

[Gaius Baltar]

Relating to the poll options - I looked up the amendment/passage in the Tabularium, and unfortunately does not seem to have made in into the Constitution with the same wording as in the amendment. However, it does provide for four options using bullet points.

[Halie Satanus]

I’m at work and I’m the middle of a real life crisis. Teenage love and heroin, brutal combination. I’ll discuss what I can later tonight.

[Veteraan]

I will address some comments to hopefully provide some insight into my reason to vote for a removal of Citizenship. Although we largely agreed pretty much on everything, I'm sure Halie will have some things to add, when he is ready to do so.

Voted. I'll repeat my arguments from the other thread.

Personally I really disagree with removing SoulGamesInc's citizenship. Soul made that video for his Youtube subscribers to explain why he had stopped posting TWCenter hotseats after a 6 year history of posting them.
In addition, Soul did not post the video on TWCenter. Parafix did.The fact that the name calling wasn't conducted on TWC. It was off-site, and no-one would have known about it if it hadn't been posted here (which Soul had no part in). You shouldn't be able to be infracted or whatever for stuff you do off-site, its just a ridiculous premise. Any argument that "its been done in the past before" is a terrible argument, there's absolutely no reason to stick with it and lots of reasons to change the procedures.

I found the videos to be extremely rude and insulting to other members. Especially of course to Jadli, Gigantus, Hader, Flinn and Tango12345 who were either called a Jackass, plague, people who don't know what they are doing and other stuff to boot. And there were two such videos, one posted on March 7th and the other two days ago. The first one has a rather short, but still enlightening paragraph about TWC in it. And if you can stomach 24 minutes of sustained throwing of insults at TWC and some of its members in particular, be sure to have a look at the second video also

You state that "You shouldn't be able to be infracted or whatever for stuff you do off-site, its just a ridiculous premise." Well, I beg to differ on this. Yes, you shouldn't be referred for stuff you do off-site, whatever it is you do, no matter if it is not permitted here. I think there is one exception to that and that is if you directly link your comments to this site and especially if you attack our members personally. Adding statements that should be protected by SND does not help either.

The argument that "no one would have known it" does not fly either as far as I'm concerned. The Youtube channel those videos are posted on, is quite well known by a lot of our members. And even if that were not the case, it still is something that should not be done. Especially by a Citizen, who is supposed to refrain from unbecoming behaviour. Frankly, if this is not to be considered extremely unbecoming behaviour, I don't know why we should continue to have a Citizen class on this site at all.

I am always against citizenship referral. Only when it's really extreme. I know there are consequences of all of our actions, but i think that if we talked calmly towards him and diplomatically, we should have found a consensus to this issue. I will vote for overturn, because i believe in a more diplomatic manner. If you are frustrated sometimes, you say sometimes things that you don't mean always. Problems come when we don't look actively for a solution, and if we are humble enough to do so. Be careful guys, that we don't look to fast to punish someone. Now off course, i wasn't there, so in theory i shouldn't say anything about it. But this is what i believe in. Hope you understand.

In the end, you are of course free to do what you please. I would be surprised if nothing has been done over the years, but I have never been a member of staff, let alone an admin, so this too is speculation.

Is it just me or my bowser or did I miss the posts of the censores where they provide their reasoning for the option chosen? I would have expected that to be posted alongside the option chosen in the further action thread.

Actually there is not that much reasoning given as both Halie and I found the content of the video quite compelling evidence in itself. However, if you go to the original referral thread (there is a link at the top of this page), you will see some comments nonetheless. It would be nice if everybody that wants to join this discussion and vote on it would visit that page. Please read everything and click on all links if you have not done so already.

I’m at work and I’m the middle of a real life crisis. Teenage love and heroin, brutal combination. I’ll discuss what I can later tonight.

That is something nobody wants to hear. Best of luck with that situation.

[Iskar]

I find the video to be grounds enough for removal of citizenship. Not only is it replete with unrestrained insults towards a very specific user that he cannot expect to be non-guessable, given he talks quite excessively about where that unnamed inidividual appeared in two Novus applications as opposition (I think that already uniquely identifies him), but it is also highly detrimental to the site, berating the administration, spreading the claim that hotseating/multiplayer are impossible to have on TWC all the while bathing in unbelievable self-righteousness and inviting people over to his site. If that is not exactly what he wanted Jadli banned for I don't know what is.

I shall wait for the Censores to possibly restate their cases as well as some more opinions, but I am strongly tending towards uphold.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Veteraan. His argument that off-site behaviour shouldn't be considered unless it relates directly to the site or its members cuts it.

[Aikanár]

HS, good luck with RL issues, no worries, take your time.

Veteran, cheers for your post. Yes, I've read the other thread. I was simply a little consternante about the rather short further action thread and the sole "voted" posts.

As for the video, I consider it easily grave enough to warrant a removal of rank.

Uphold.

[General Brewster]

Relating to the poll options - I looked up the amendment/passage in the Tabularium, and unfortunately does not seem to have made in into the Constitution with the same wording as in the amendment. However, it does provide for four options using bullet points.

That's exactly why there are four points. I'd rather not void for that but it's something that could use some rephrasing.

[General Dragon.]

One of those who played/worked together with Soul I have to agree what Pontifex and Hannibal said. I never questioned his past works, before I showed up and working with him, even if I didn't agreed everytime I would have still said he was a fine member, but when everything boils down and things turn sour, Soul is such a person, who never admits defeat, never budge at all, never give up on the premise that he is right and sadly we all could see what happened, when after he was overturned once by Hexagon Council's decision he fully quited his professionalism and went down on this dark path. Yes off-site materials are called off-site for reasons, because you keep said things there, but when you openly and actively link that off-site material to TWC, you aren't off-site anymore and it was an open attack againts the site and of its fine members.
As an ex-staff leader he should have known better that if he makes such a video he can't avoid repercussions. It doesn't matter if parafix posted it or not, as the videos aim is to insult every minute TWC. The very act of creating it this way brings this consequences

If you wish to inform your off-site viewership why you quit you can make your video in many different ways and keep it that way, if you act as a professional and as a level-headed person, but when you keep saying that to others, but then you can't act like that is double standardism and keeping this attitude will reach to the point when he will cross a line and from that you can't turn back. Revoking his citizenship for the unbecoming behavior is enough punishment in itself for his actions.

[Halie Satanus]

All good at work. We all had a good laugh as the maintenance man was plastering over the fist shaped holes in the wall while we drank tea with a nice digestive biscuit.

************************************************************************************************

As I stated yesterday there are elements to this that cannot be discussed. Mostly due to what is stated in this post. For those who can't connect the dots, the curator cannot contact Parafix so any judgements on his cases cannot be made public. Perhaps if that is resolved you'll all understand the challenge we faced with both cases. I hope I'm not breeching anything there.

Why 'both cases' you may ask. Because both Soul and Parafix are on one side of this and irrevocably linked by their actions.

My thoughts on the video. That was not simply an attack on someone who pissed Soul off. Had it been simply that, I could have justified being lenient. That was an attack on the administration designed to expand the rift in the HS community and cause as much disruption as possible. It was designed, quite deliberately, as a middle finger and as a rally to entice members away from here to join their site.

I'm going to blunt now. If anyone here honestly believes that Soul did not think his video was going to be posted here (on TWC) you are at the peak of naivety. If you actually accept that posting that video off-site and not naming Jadli directly is a viable defence, I hope no one ever calls you a on the internet and that I am not there to hear your complaints. As far as I'm concerned the whole video displays a malevolent arrogance, which was only compounded by the 'defence.' Which you will note, has barely a mention of the video at all. It would have been quite a defence to convince me otherwise, Soul didn't even try.

How I reached my decision. Honestly, it took me less than the 24 minute length of the video to decide. The fact the 'defence' actually stated he expected the referral to be dismissed sealed it for me.

Lastly. I won't be salty if the curia decides to overturn or even reduce the punishment. I would simply disappointed that you think, a member, citizen, censor, can post a vile diatribe on youtube and get away with it. If that is an acceptable standard of citizenship behaviour, we are lost.

[♔atthias♔]

voted because of what I see and read that is behouvior I do not want to see on a citizen

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

Did Soul himself post, link or otherwise disseminate (or indeed even mention) the video on TWC, either publicly or privately, to your knowledge? Or is there any evidence to suggest he conspired to have it posted here by proxy?

[Halie Satanus]

Did Soul himself post, link or otherwise disseminate (or indeed even mention) the video on TWC, either publicly or privately, to your knowledge? Or is there any evidence to suggest he conspired to have it posted here by proxy?

What video?

[Hitai de Bodemloze]

What video?

The one he was referred for, that you were just discussing.