Machiavello TW (mid XV Century Italy) - original thread

[Wallachian]

@Wallachian: That's a fair point, but otherwise the Swiss roster would lack variety, as the only real distinction between their armies is made between urban and rural militias or mercenaries and their weapon type - handgun, halberd or pike.

I don't think the Swiss roster would lack variety at all. For example, you could have several types of each unit varying between light/heavy armour, urban/rural militias, professional/mercenaries/militias. Actually, from what I can remember the Swiss split their army in 3 parts: auszug, landwehr and landsturm. So there is quite a large variety of Swiss units that can be created which would be more realistic and more varied than the split between cantons. Unless certain cantons were better at certain weapons/tactics than others.

Between having the various types of weapons: pike, halberd, handgun, arquebus, warhammer, two-handed sword, crossbow and also combinations with pavises and the various tiers of units i think there could be quite a large variety for the Swiss.

[Mylae]

I don't think the Swiss roster would lack variety at all. For example, you could have several types of each unit varying between light/heavy armour, urban/rural militias, professional/mercenaries/militias.

rightly so: this is the setup I will try to create. Special buildings (Zeughaus) will allow +1 bonuses on arms and armours on certain units
non-recruitable units
-Peasants
-General's bodyguards (mounted)

Militia units (little if any armour)
-Pikemen (+1 armour: helmets)
-Halberdiers (+1 armour: helmets)
-Pavise spearmen
-Bowmen
-Crossbowmen (+1 armour: helmets)
-Handgunners (+1 armour: helmets) / after 1460s: Arquebusiers (+1 armour: helmets)
-Mounted crossbowmen

Semi-professional units (helmets, hand protection, breastplates, some leg protection)
-Pikemen (+1 armour: leg protection)
-Halberdiers (+1 armour: leg protection)
-Crossbowmen
-Handgunners / after 1460s: Arquebusiers
-Mounted crossbowmen
-Light cavalrymen

Professional units/mercenaries (helmets, hand protection, full breast and backplates, complete leg protection)
-General's foot bodyguards
-Pikemen
-Halberdiers
-after 1470s: 2 handed Swordsmen
-Crossbowmen
-Handgunners / after 1460s: Arquebusiers
-Mounted crossbowmen
-Medium cavalrymen

Artillery
-Falconet
-Mortar
-Bombard
-Cannon

Actually, from what I can remember the Swiss split their army in 3 parts: auszug, landwehr and landsturm. So there is quite a large variety of Swiss units that can be created which would be more realistic and more varied than the split between cantons. Unless certain cantons were better at certain weapons/tactics than others.
Between having the various types of weapons: pike, halberd, handgun, arquebus, warhammer, two-handed sword, crossbow and also combinations with pavises and the various tiers of units i think there could be quite a large variety for the Swiss.

From what I can find, the auszug, landwehr and landsturm is an age subdivision that was introduced somewhat in the Napoleonic times, and abandoned in 1995. Anyway, a large variety of arms and armaments will be provided.

[Wallachian]

No, the auszug, landwehr, landsturm system existed since medieval times. Check out the Osprey book The Swiss at War 1300-1500 page 4 which explains that there were 3 categories of soldiers. Just google the name of the book and you will find a pdf copy (i dont think i am allowed to copy the link here due to copyright issues).

Anyway, your split of the troops looks fantastic and very varied but also stays within historical accuracy. Looking forward to playing a campaign!

Btw, do you have period specific Swiss names in Machiavello?

[LEZVIE]

A job well done . It was in the cantons that I divided the Swiss units in my fashion mod The Italian Wars 1493 - 1559 TW.

Here are screenshots of units of the Canton of Bern 1500 - 1530

[LEZVIE]

Request moderators to remove post # 224, I made a mistake.

[Mylae]

No, the auszug, landwehr, landsturm system existed since medieval times. Check out the Osprey book The Swiss at War 1300-1500 page 4 which explains that there were 3 categories of soldiers. Just google the name of the book and you will find a pdf copy (i dont think i am allowed to copy the link here due to copyright issues).

will try to get and buy the book

Anyway, your split of the troops looks fantastic and very varied but also stays within historical accuracy. Looking forward to playing a campaign!

Btw, do you have period specific Swiss names in Machiavello?

Yes, but if you have other lists please give me. names are never few...

[sullivanclan1]

The screenshots look great! How many units will be in each faction?

[Wallachian]

@LEZVIE. The quality of your units is just fantastic. I don't know how you can find the strength and energy but please continue! We don't speak russian so we dont post on your forums but rest assured you have fans outside of the russian-sphere.

Also, while you are here just wanted to draw your attention on something. I noticed that you have some screenshots on your forums of Milanese units and you have some units with S coat of arms.

I can't read russian so I am not sure what the unit is called. However, just letting you know that the S is not for Sforza, it is actually the coat of arms of Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigism...olfo_Malatesta

Here is an exaple of the herladry of Malatesta who was from Rimini

[Wallachian]

will try to get and buy the book

Yes, but if you have other lists please give me. names are never few...

Unfortunately we have a large list of Swiss names from medieval times but they are all in Latin. From here http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/names.html

I wanted to ask you what is your opinion on the 'all'antica' armour or the so called heroic armour which brought back into fashion in the late XV and XVI century elements of the Greco Roman antiquity. And we end up having suits of armour which mixed armour plate of the XV-XVI centuries with decorative elements reminiscent of the antiquity.

For example this helmet of the cavalryman


And this whole painting here where the soldiers have on top of their armour classic-style


Or the one here on the left


Other examples


How popular was it? How much was it in use in XV century Italy?

[Elendil 03]

Sorry, Elendil, but I do not respectfully agree on the "brown and gray": to me, middle ages is a world of colorful people and garments. Have a look at the surviving sources: The Spiezer Chronik (here> https://www.e-codices.ch/en/thumbs/bbb/Mss-hh-I0016), the Eidgenoessische Chronik (here> https://www.e-codices.ch/en/thumbs/s.../Sequence-1061), the Spiezer Chronik (here> https://www.e-codices.ch/en/thumbs/bbb/Mss-hh-I0016 ) are primary sources hard to ignore.

Have a look at this page, for example: it represents the founding of the city of Bern; there are common workers, woodcutters and a group of city officials. You may realise that commoners have a clear shave, the master builder has a poche with a dagger, and a white apron like one of his fellows; city officials tend to have beards, more elaborate dresses, singular hats, highly decorated items. the class difference is not in colours used, but on display and quality of cloth and fabric, unique and richly decorated items.
https://www.e-codices.ch/en/bbb/Mss-hh-I0016//55


We will have cantonal colours for Uri (yellow/black), Bern/Glarus (red/black), Schwitz/Obwalden/Unterwalden (red/white), Zurich/Zug/Luzern (azure/white) and "generic" black/white that will be given to Basel, Fribourg, Appenzell and the Gray League.

This is completely right, but my main suggestion was to desaturate the colors a bit (dyeing solutions were used several times with a decreasing degree of saturation; as you can see in the illustrations, the colors are rather pale. Such textiles were much cheaper than intensely colorful ones) and what I meant with the "grey and brown" was to replace black and red spots with them as natural dyes in these two particular colors were rather difficult to achieve. The pants that I thought were black seem grey enough on a closer look, though. I also don't really know how yellow dyes were made.

[Mylae]

Unfortunately we have a large list of Swiss names from medieval times but they are all in Latin. From here http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/names.html
I wanted to ask you what is your opinion on the 'all'antica' armour or the so called heroic armour which brought back into fashion in the late XV and XVI century elements of the Greco Roman antiquity. And we end up having suits of armour which mixed armour plate of the XV-XVI centuries with decorative elements reminiscent of the antiquity.
[...]
How popular was it? How much was it in use in XV century Italy?

Thanks for the name list!
I was reflecting about them a few days ago, posting in a fb groups on xv century arms and armours. The problem is that we have few extant armours; possibly some parade armour "all'antica", or some singular helmet could have been done later on, but again, more for display purposes than real fighting. On the other hand, some fashionable item could have been used in real battle, and become more widespread - for instance, the emergence of Y-shaped barbuta helmets may have something to do with archeological findings, love of the past and common usage of what was perceived as an "ancient" helmet that get revamped. We often see all'antica decorations/protections for shoulders, pteryges and helmets, and although I do not believe they were used in battle, I still think that we can't totally rule them out, as some people could have had them made for himself to be "fashionable" to his fellow (subordinate?) soldiers.

This is completely right, but my main suggestion was to desaturate the colors a bit (dyeing solutions were used several times with a decreasing degree of saturation; as you can see in the illustrations, the colors are rather pale. Such textiles were much cheaper than intensely colorful ones) and what I meant with the "grey and brown" was to replace black and red spots with them as natural dyes in these two particular colors were rather difficult to achieve. The pants that I thought were black seem grey enough on a closer look, though. I also don't really know how yellow dyes were made.

Ohh, I see your point. I think you are right - however, some colour may just look more bright or saturated here in the 3d previews. Ingame they look balanced enough, also there depending on light issues.

[Mylae]

A further update: Swiss Hornblower, Flagbearer and Officer (Uri)


Model for Militia Hornblower, Flagbearer and Officer of the Canton of Uri of the Swiss Confederation. The soldiers are dressed in the Yellow/black colours of the Canton of Uri, a founding member of the Swiss Confederation. The flag is the Uristier, the black bull’s head on a yellow field, recorded since 1271 also as coat of arms. Hornblowers are represented marching along troops sporting the singular bull-head hat (e.g. in the Luzerner Schilling’s illustration of the Battle of Grandson.
The model is mainly a combination of work made by the mod team and some OSP pack developed for Mount & Blade Warband.

[Elendil 03]

They look amazing. Were the horns attached to helmets below their hoods or are they made of cloth?

[Mylae]

They look amazing. Were the horns attached to helmets below their hoods or are they made of cloth?

It's hard to say. In some illustration they look white -. as real horns. In other they look yellow and black, as if they were of cloth. In the the Luzerner Schilling’s illustration of the Battle of Grandson you see a hint of what could be even a tail - or the scabbard of his sword.

[Elendil 03]

Very interesting. Did they symbolise anything specifing or were they just supposed to scare the enemy?

[Mylae]

they were a clear reference to the Uristier, the black bull's head sported in the Canton of Uri's coat of arms since 1243 onwards. Unfortunately there's not a wiki page in English, but in French or German - here you may find some more information >> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapea...canton_d%27Uri

[AnthoniusII]

Mylae i believe that Lord_Calidor's weapon pack (with weapons re-sized to be in proper size) could speed up your units creations. Then you would need unique weapons to create only.

[sullivanclan1]

looks there is progress to the mod.

[Sgt.Feldsau]

The mod looks awesome! Keep up the good work, will definitly play it

[Elendil 03]

I hope Mylae is alright and MachTW doing well.