Machiavello TW (mid XV Century Italy) - original thread

[Mylae]

Hello guys, sorry for the long absence - unfortunately I have issues at work, and I had very little time to devote to the mod. I hope in the future things will get better.

[Elendil 03]

No problem, mate. We're crossing our fingers for you! I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but just in case you will not be able to proceed the work for a longer period if at all, we would be extremely grateful if you uploaded the amazing work you've created so far to an accessible place to prevent it from getting lost.

[Mylae]

No problem, mate. We're crossing our fingers for you! I'm sorry if that sounds rude, but just in case you will not be able to proceed the work for a longer period if at all, we would be extremely grateful if you uploaded the amazing work you've created so far to an accessible place to prevent it from getting lost.

no rudeness - that will be done.
In case I think it will be impossible for me to continue, I will upload all the file and release them in public domain for other people to continue the effort.

Unfortunately is quite hard to do something if you have to work also on weekends, and your boss keeps asking for more.

[Elendil 03]

Hm... feeling sorry for you. I wish you good luck with your boss then.

[stevietheconquer]

the work of your team and you is already unforgettable!you did magic here,i hope your boss will give you some free time,i wish you all the goods of the world.

[Kilgore Trout]

Your work is amazing. I hope you get more free time soon!

[Mylae]

Here I am with an update: sorry for the long silence, but my new job is really taking more time than I thought.
Swiss militia crossbowmen are here, and with a nice and colourful Zurich livery ����


Model for a Swiss Militia Crossbowmen of the Canton of Zürich of the Swiss Confederation. Two model variation are shown armed with simple wooden crossbow and baselard daggers. They wear the colours of Zürich, white and blue, with normal hoses, skirts and dresses as shown in swiss chroniclers. The model is mainly a combination of work made by the mod team and some OSP pack developed for Mount & Blade Warband.

[Wallachian]

Welcome back!

[Wareg]

For years I'm creating my own MTW2 custom battle modification with units from New Kingdom Egypt and Mycenaean Greece to 19th century colonial armies with Gatling guns.
I've found Swiss as very difficult in terms of stat balance. Some of battles they fought are almost impossible to recreate in MTW2.
For ex. St Jakob an der Birs (1444) 1500 Swiss attacked 15-20 000 French mercenaries, fought many houres as equals end probably killed at least 2000 enemies (more then their whole army)
If we assume that Swiss were rather poorly armoured why thousands of Armagnac archers/crossbowmen didn't wipe them out from distance (or from flanks as melee began)?
How can they survive melee for such long time? It wasn't battle of small elite vs unorganised mob. Armagnac forces were battle hardened veterans of 100 years war.
I doubt that many of Swiss had any battle expercience, Swiss mercenaries were common rather later, after Burgundian war. In terms of training they pbobably also were inferior to men-at-arms of noble birth.
Weapons - Swiss had long spears, about 3 meters length. Even direct charge of more numerous men-at-arms should inflict heavy causalties (on both sides).
At Arbedo (1422) Swiss were mainly halberdiers (I'm not sure if ANY pikemen were present, have you got more info?) , so repulsing mounted men-at-arms (2 times more numerous than whole Swiss army) seems to be even more difficult.
So, I shouldn't probably give mid 15th century Swiss more attack/defence skill than men-at-arms, cause they were probably less experienced than Armagnac mercenaries.
I shouldn't give them super defence bonus of very long pikes (as for ex. Macedonian sarrisofori or 17th century pikemen) cause Swiss pikes were very short, not enoguh to create "buffer zone"
Extremaly high morale and frighten_foot/mounted is not enough to make such battle in MTW2 possible.
What do you think about Swiss in terms of armours? In many manuscripts almost all Swiss had at least corselets/mail shirt. But on the other hand there is also written account that in one group of 6000 Swiss in 1474 no one had breastplat at all.
Were small "choosen" auszug forces like those from St Jakob or Arbedo better armoured than larger, more generic Swiss armies (Grandson/Morat)?
What about padded armours? Gambsons seems very widespread amongst 13-15th militias, common even amongst peasant rebels ("jackquerie"). On the other hand I'm really not sure if those colorful long sleeved jacks common in manuscripts amongst unarmoured Swiss were padded or not. They seems rather thin, and not stiff as opossed to 30 layers thick gambesons. Have you got more info about this?

[Mylae]

For years I'm creating my own MTW2 custom battle modification with units from New Kingdom Egypt and Mycenaean Greece to 19th century colonial armies with Gatling guns.
I've found Swiss as very difficult in terms of stat balance. Some of battles they fought are almost impossible to recreate in MTW2.
For ex. St Jakob an der Birs (1444) 1500 Swiss attacked 15-20 000 French mercenaries, fought many houres as equals end probably killed at least 2000 enemies (more then their whole army)
If we assume that Swiss were rather poorly armoured why thousands of Armagnac archers/crossbowmen didn't wipe them out from distance (or from flanks as melee began)?
How can they survive melee for such long time? It wasn't battle of small elite vs unorganised mob. Armagnac forces were battle hardened veterans of 100 years war.
I doubt that many of Swiss had any battle expercience, Swiss mercenaries were common rather later, after Burgundian war. In terms of training they pbobably also were inferior to men-at-arms of noble birth.
Weapons - Swiss had long spears, about 3 meters length. Even direct charge of more numerous men-at-arms should inflict heavy causalties (on both sides).
At Arbedo (1422) Swiss were mainly halberdiers (I'm not sure if ANY pikemen were present, have you got more info?) , so repulsing mounted men-at-arms (2 times more numerous than whole Swiss army) seems to be even more difficult.
So, I shouldn't probably give mid 15th century Swiss more attack/defence skill than men-at-arms, cause they were probably less experienced than Armagnac mercenaries.
I shouldn't give them super defence bonus of very long pikes (as for ex. Macedonian sarrisofori or 17th century pikemen) cause Swiss pikes were very short, not enoguh to create "buffer zone"
Extremaly high morale and frighten_foot/mounted is not enough to make such battle in MTW2 possible.
What do you think about Swiss in terms of armours? In many manuscripts almost all Swiss had at least corselets/mail shirt. But on the other hand there is also written account that in one group of 6000 Swiss in 1474 no one had breastplat at all.
Were small "choosen" auszug forces like those from St Jakob or Arbedo better armoured than larger, more generic Swiss armies (Grandson/Morat)?
What about padded armours? Gambsons seems very widespread amongst 13-15th militias, common even amongst peasant rebels ("jackquerie"). On the other hand I'm really not sure if those colorful long sleeved jacks common in manuscripts amongst unarmoured Swiss were padded or not. They seems rather thin, and not stiff as opossed to 30 layers thick gambesons. Have you got more info about this?

@Wareg,
You are right, but we should remember that M2TW as well as any other game engine can't reproduce a real life event.
the St. Jacob 1444 battle is a clear example: by reading the chronicles, you do realise that what happened is almost impossible to reproduce. after an initial skirmish, the swiss stopped the cavalry charging by forming walls of pikes, allowing the bulk of their troops to entrenched in a monastry, hiding behind the walls. the attacking cavalry tried to get close, but had neither ladders or other tools to get in, and suffered heavy casualties in the initial attack. the swiss were hit later, when the french missile troops and artillery caught up, and indeed later on they had to retreat into the walls and they were finally killed.
Remember, the swiss lost the battle. they managed to kill many people but if you think at how the battle was later fought in a siege-like form, it feels more obvious.

[Wareg]

Yes, later phase was siege, but before that they attacked in field and repulsed multiply charges of overwhelimg enemy for hours before withdrew. Is is impressive that they weren't massacrated in minutes. But maybe you are right and majority of casualties of French was during storming of fortifications in last phase.

[Aneirin]

Very interesting, keep it up

[tomySVK]

I returned from the trip to Bologna and Florence, so I checked this amazing mod - I´m glad the mod is still alive and the new units are amazing

[Elendil 03]

I live in Basel, 15 minutes by bike from St. Jakob, and I'm pretty sure the 1444 battle wasn't fought in a monastery but on an open plain (and later in a certainly not very well-fortified lazarette, when the Swiss had already expended their forces). I guess the immense casualties suffered by the French are much rather due to their own weakness: the noble cavalry they fielded was poorly disciplined, even a decent commander could not have made them follow any more than the most rudimentary tactics. That was what happened during the first stages of the 100 years war and it probably didn't change much with the introduction of more professional troops in the French military, which were, with little exception, unmounted.
The French were trying to encircle the Swiss pikemen rather than outmanoeuver or shoot them and didn't leave them any room to escape, both of which must have significantly boosted the Swiss militiamen's combat effectivity and morale (they didn't have an option but fighting to the death, as commoners were usually not spared when defeated by nobles). On top of that, the French nobles would have never allowed themselves to dismount even in such unfavorable situations, staying on horseback instead even if this created a whole lot of problems when engaging angry dudes with long pointy sticks, even when not that long in comparison.

[Mylae]

Hello,

I will soon post some preview - I am working on new horse units and some stratmap models.

[Antonius]

Hello,

I will soon post some preview - I am working on new horse units and some stratmap models.

Sounds great!!!

[Mylae]

an updated preview:



https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/ital...41e0c47bf4c796

Model for an Italian Cernite Light Spearmen for the Florentine republic. Two model variation are shown with a farsetto and a giornea, as contemporary sources depicts them. Red/White/Black colours appears with some variations in similar patterns. “Cernite” were semi-professional militias typical of XV century Italy. The model is mainly a combination of work made by the mod team and some OSP pack developed for Mount & Blade Warband.

[tomySVK]

Great work, like always

[Mylae]

thanks!

by the way, a new preview: it is time to show off the professional Italian units.
Hope you like this unusual dark-lighted diorama, it allowed me to play a bit with lighting.



https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/ital...4e78ad388cc0a6

Medieval 2 Total War - Machiavello mod | Model for an Italian Professional Billman for the Florentine republic. Two model variation are shown, armed with Italian-style bills (ronconi), and protected with front and back plate armour or brigandine in conjunction with chainmail. Helmets are barbute protected by the mazzocchio, a cloth ring stuffed with wool or cotton. Red/White/Black colours appears with some variations in similar patterns. Professional soldiers are typical in mercenary armies of XV century Italy. The model is mainly a combination of work made by the mod team and some OSP pack developed for Mount & Blade Warband.

[mongrel]

full of win