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Thread: The Total War Chat Thread

  1. #61

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    I dunno man. Shogun 2 is probably the best example of the "rock paper scissors" syndrome that I was talking about. In fact, it was probably my least favorite game, tied with Rome 2.

  2. #62

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Shogun 2's sell was polish, certainly not innovation in creative gameplay. It's appeal is a simple application of the total war formula on a polished scale, much like the original was, but after medieval I could never really enjoy that simplicity again, and it seemed history strongly repeated with the next version.

  3. #63

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Empire Total War is the game I usually play. It's a shame CA never optimized/fixed bugs in this game, just like did with Rome 2. Because of the scale of this game, I think suits better with later 18th century warfare in North America (United States and Canada). I don't have much idea about this part of the History since I focused in my readings in Europe, but because of this reason I think probably is time to play "The Road to Independence" campaign and start reading about the topic, I have some interesting books from Osprey Publishing and I probably can find others in Archive.org.

  4. #64

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    I'm against the idea of hard counters in general. I get that they must exist for some cases (cavalry chasing down archers), but I'd much rather see a layered approach. I.e. elite units beat everything but cost a lot/long training time. Bad units have low morale, and so on. Honestly, hard counters in a game like Total War is just lazy game design.

    Then again, when they do get overly creative, with stuff like Roma 2 unit cards, I really hate that too.

  5. #65

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Can anyone explain me the technical reasons of why Attila Total War has bad performance even in the most modern computers? Do you think this fact contributed to the reputation of this title? Is it true that Attila Total War was meant for future graphic cards?

  6. #66
    Leonardo's Avatar Reborn Old Timer
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Incendio View Post
    Can anyone explain me the technical reasons of why Attila Total War has bad performance even in the most modern computers? Do you think this fact contributed to the reputation of this title? Is it true that Attila Total War was meant for future graphic cards?
    I don't have Atilla mostly because the release of R2TW was a complete disaster. Which was my first, and ever, pre-order of a brand new TW game.



    This video clearly shows how bad R2TW was upon release, which might explain of why Atilla had poor performance. Because both games are based on a buggy game engine and that is the Warscape engine.

    Of course this is my observations and others may or may not agree with me, but that's okay.
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  7. #67
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Um Leonardo, why is then ToB perfarmance a way better when it is Attila1.5 engine? I have all three games and ToB is basically Attila, the insides are pretty same only minor tweaks...There was even way how to bring ToB shaders into Attila and boost performance (which is not working anymore after ToB update.. https://steamcommunity.com/app/32561...5576968/?ctp=7 )

    The reason for poor performance in my eyes is the same one as for Oblivion which has worse performance than Skyrim, the same reason Empire siege bug will slow down FPS to single digits due to AI... Games usually can benefits from HW only to certain point. Like now for example Wh1-2 and 3K are 64 bits engines and can thus adress more then 4 GB of (V)RAM. But R2/Attila/ToB are 32 bits. Because even with newest SSDs and RAMs if the game has to load textures and other stuff, it takes time. Plus modern GPU and CPU can effectively compute some advanced features while older games made for older GPU will use brute force to compute stuff while looking more awful.
    Last edited by Daruwind; November 13, 2019 at 07:33 AM.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Um Leonardo, why is then ToB perfarmance a way better when it is Attila1.5 engine? I have all three games and ToB is basically Attila, the insides are pretty same only minor tweaks...There was even way how to bring ToB shaders into Attila and boost performance (which is not working anymore after ToB update.. https://steamcommunity.com/app/32561...5576968/?ctp=7 )
    I don't understand why you brought up ToB when I haven't mentioned it at all. All I did was to give an answer, trying at least, to Incendio's question about why Atilla doesn't had better performance on modern computers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    The reason for poor performance in my eyes is the same one as for Oblivion which has worse performance than Skyrim, the same reason Empire siege bug will slow down FPS to single digits due to AI... Games usually can benefits from HW only to certain point. Like now for example Wh1-2 and 3K are 64 bits engines and can thus adress more then 4 GB of (V)RAM. But R2/Attila/ToB are 32 bits. Because even with newest SSDs and RAMs if the game has to load textures and other stuff, it takes time. Plus modern GPU and CPU can effectively compute some advanced features while older games made for older GPU will use brute force to compute stuff while looking more awful.
    You cannot compare performance between Oblivion and Skyrim, because both games are based on a different game engine e.g Gamebryo for Oblivion (slightly improved version of Gamebryo for Morrowind IIRC), Creation Kit engine (Papyrus) for Skyrim (32-bit and 64-bit hence two separate games SLE, SSE with the same game title Skyrim).


    True about 32-bit vs 64-bit, which affect graphics a lot and in some cases actually more than you may think.

    I also want to mention that Morrowind was a very CPU intensive game in comparison to the newer TES games hence for using MGE (recommended for older computers) or MGE-XE (recommended for modern computers).

    For example, in SSE numerous of improvements were made and here (read the other posts as well in that thread page) is a short list of what was added in SSE.

    If you want to discuss performance for the TES games then let us continue in a new thread here as this is off topic.
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  9. #69
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    I don't understand why you brought up ToB when I haven't mentioned it at all. All I did was to give an answer, trying at least, to Incendio's question about why Atilla doesn't had better performance on modern computers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonardo View Post
    Because both games are based on a buggy game engine and that is the Warscape engine.
    Exactly. ToB=Attila engine. These two games are the closest two title we have heck even ToB could be Attila´s DLC. So clearly Attila´s problem could be solved by CA in some way..

    (to be fair all games from Empire are based upon Warscape engine, different versions...however I hope we all can agree R2/Attila/ToB are very close especially Attila/ToB are basically the same)

    You cannot compare performance between Oblivion and Skyrim, because both games are based on a different game engine e.g Gamebryo for Oblivion (slightly improved version of Gamebryo for Morrowind IIRC), Creation Kit engine (Papyrus) for Skyrim (32-bit and 64-bit hence two separate games SLE, SSE with the same game title Skyrim).

    True about 32-bit vs 64-bit, which affect graphics a lot and in some cases actually more than you may think.

    I also want to mention that Morrowind was a very CPU intensive game in comparison to the newer TES games hence for using MGE (recommended for older computers) or MGE-XE (recommended for modern computers).

    For example, in SSE numerous of improvements were made and here (read the other posts as well in that thread page) is a short list of what was added in SSE.

    If you want to discuss performance for the TES games then let us continue in a new thread here as this is off topic.
    Thank you for fully explaining my point. You just said it with more words and more precisely. ;-) However I can compare different games/engine in terms of efficiency of resource managements even despite being writen for different systems. I´m not talking about absolute score but in relative terms in always particular areas. 64/32 Skyrim, relative performance Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim. Rome2/Attila/Tob. 32/64bits TWs... And reason why I bring forward TES is simple, well known example and I thought especially you would appreciate it. That´s all.

    Any engine is build to cope with certain things. It will do something easily than other stuff. You made excellent point with MGE(-XE)but my point was about all those games has some troubles steaming from certain technollogies, HW usage. OF course each of those games has different problem.
    Last edited by Daruwind; November 13, 2019 at 08:25 AM.

  10. #70
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    A faulty engine could be a factor for poor performance, but I doubt that the main responsibility lies in it. Most depends on the quality of optimisation and beta-testing, both of which are aspects that are especially neglected nowadays, when so much income comes from hasty pre-orders. Attila performs so badly, because Creative Assembly never invested too many resources in fixing this glaring issue. Actually, CA was already aware of the issue and tried to preempt the inevitable complaints, by claiming that the ultimate settings could only be enjoyed with future graphic cards, an excuse which was largely rejected (justifiably, as future proved) for being completely surreal, from a technical perspective. In what concerns the reasons for Attila performing worse than its predecessors or successors, I suspect that the reason lies with its rushed release (albeit a bit delayed, according to the original planning).

    Much of 2014 was spent improving the atrocious state of Rome II, in order to increase the sales of DLC packs and reduce the negativity among the community. Unfortunately, this policy influenced the quality of Attila, which, regardless of any marketing jargon, was always treated as an expansion and relatively less important follow-up to a major tent-pole title. Moreover, the fact that Attila sold poorly (due to the 3rd of September debacle, the smaller popularity of the Late Antiquity period and even the more moderate advertisement), while fewer DLCs were going to be released and the much more profitable Warhammer trilogy was in full production, meant that CA was less motivated to waste resources in optimisation.

  11. #71
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    I would even suggest that Attila´s bad reputation is primary reason why ToB is being fully standalone and with as low notes about ties to Attila as possible.

    I always thought that making ToB DLC for Attila and announcing fixing performance would probably restore Attila´s reputation as the latest DLCs/patches did for Rome 2.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    A faulty engine could be a factor for poor performance, but I doubt that the main responsibility lies in it. Most depends on the quality of optimisation and beta-testing, both of which are aspects that are especially neglected nowadays, when so much income comes from hasty pre-orders. Attila performs so badly, because Creative Assembly never invested too many resources in fixing this glaring issue. Actually, CA was already aware of the issue and tried to preempt the inevitable complaints, by claiming that the ultimate settings could only be enjoyed with future graphic cards, an excuse which was largely rejected (justifiably, as future proved) for being completely surreal, from a technical perspective. In what concerns the reasons for Attila performing worse than its predecessors or successors, I suspect that the reason lies with its rushed release (albeit a bit delayed, according to the original planning).

    Much of 2014 was spent improving the atrocious state of Rome II, in order to increase the sales of DLC packs and reduce the negativity among the community. Unfortunately, this policy influenced the quality of Attila, which, regardless of any marketing jargon, was always treated as an expansion and relatively less important follow-up to a major tent-pole title. Moreover, the fact that Attila sold poorly (due to the 3rd of September debacle, the smaller popularity of the Late Antiquity period and even the more moderate advertisement), while fewer DLCs were going to be released and the much more profitable Warhammer trilogy was in full production, meant that CA was less motivated to waste resources in optimisation.
    Good post Abdul. I don't think you missed anything not worth mentioning.

    That's why I stop being a TW fan after the disastruos release of R2TW, because I payed a lot of money for something that didn't work. To be exact 1100 SEK (note that Euro was worth less back then than it is now) for a pre-ordered Rome 2 TW Collectors Edition.
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  13. #73

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Because of performance issues, I have to invest in a middle range computer of today (2019) to play games from 2014 (Rome II) and 2015 (Attila). Does someone else have the same problem?

  14. #74
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Not sure there is PC to completely help. For example I can run WH2/3K at best details no problems almost. In Empire in sieges, when AI is defending, there is this FPS drops which so far is manifesting on any HW i was trying to play with. Similar with Attila, no matter what PC, I have to downgrade shades and some other stuff to get decent FPS.

    Just take example or RAM. Empire, Rome2, Attila are 32bits programs and can thus adress only 4GB of (V)RAM at max. Actually not sure Empire is not maxing at 2GB or something like that...So more RAM like 16/32 can help that background progams, OS will have enough space and not cutting the game but as you can see after certain point HW is not helping so much. Similar with CPU cores. Newer games might utilize them but brute force will go only so far..

  15. #75

    Default Re: How will the end of support for the current TW Launcher affect DEI? (split post)

    How can I purchase a non-Steam version of RTW2 + DLC. It seems that it is only on Steam. Even when it says "digital download", it really is just Steam key? (In fact, even physical shipments from Amazon still require Steam to run it.)

    Thanks.

    PS: I have the same questions regarding Shogun 2 + DLC?
    Last edited by MeiguoJinjang; December 09, 2019 at 02:12 AM.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: How will the end of support for the current TW Launcher affect DEI? (split post)

    Post merged and split from here.

    Quote Originally Posted by MeiguoJinjang View Post
    How can I purchase a non-Steam version of RTW2 + DLC. It seems that it is only on Steam. Even when it says "digital download", it really is just Steam key? (In fact, even physical shipments from Amazon still require Steam to run it.)

    Thanks.

    PS: I have the same questions regarding Shogun 2 + DLC?
    The answer is simple. You cannot buy a non-Steam version and Steam is required otherwise you cannot play neither R2TW or S2TW, including every DLC both games has. In fact every TW games from ETW and onward requires Steam.

    Also, in recent years CA released the older TW game titles for Steam e.g MTW, STW, RTW, M2TW.

    I hope this answer your question.
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  17. #77

    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Thanks. I hope a solution can be found that allows CA to advertise, and still let us play these mods. (Certainly, DMS for Shogun 2 will never be altered again as the author has gone onto his game company.)

    So, we are all in the same leaking boat!!!

    I do have non-Steam versions for RTW and MTW2 which means RS3, DM, EB 1, and EB2. But as good as those are I want to play DEI as I feel time has passed those by already.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: The Total War Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MeiguoJinjang View Post
    Thanks. I hope a solution can be found that allows CA to advertise, and still let us play these mods. (Certainly, DMS for Shogun 2 will never be altered again as the author has gone onto his game company.)

    So, we are all in the same leaking boat!!!

    I do have non-Steam versions for RTW and MTW2 which means RS3, DM, EB 1, and EB2. But as good as those are I want to play DEI as I feel time has passed those by already.
    You're welcome.

    I actually have both retail and Steam versions of MTW, STW, and M2TW.
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