Morality of abortion

[Gaidin]

Do you believe murder is wrong? Then you want to force your beliefs onto everyone else via legislation.

Do you believe incest is wrong? Then you want to force your beliefs onto everyone else via legislation.

Do you believe pedophilia is wrong? Then you want to force your beliefs onto everyone else via legislation.

Red herrings, all.

Do you believe abortion on demand is wrong? Maybe you do maybe you don’t, but it’s no different to wanting anything else that is morally reprehensible in your opinion to be illegal

Otherwise don’t make such mundane statements.

Your point was you want to force your beliefs onto everybody via legislation? 'Kay.

[Aexodus]

So what, we shouldnt have an opinion at all on what the permitted behaviour of our fellow citizens should be if that behaviour violates individual rights?

There is a stronger argument to banning abortion, than banning say, incest, because abortion violates individual rights.

[Gaidin]

So what, we shouldnt have an opinion at all on what the permitted behaviour of our fellow citizens should be if that behaviour violates individual rights?

There is a stronger argument to banning abortion, than banning say, incest, because abortion violates individual rights.

Have an opinion all you want. Don't legislate your opinion down my throat. Especially when you can't tell the difference between a human already born and one in the fetal stages.

[Aexodus]

It is in the fetal stages, and it is human. Why then, shouldn’t it be afforded the same human rights as you or me? It’s a dangerous path when you begin stripping away human rights for arbitrary reasons such as gender, skin colour, or in this case, age.

[Gaidin]

It is in the fetal stages, and it is human. Why then, shouldn’t it be afforded the same human rights as you or me? It’s a dangerous path when you begin stripping away human rights for arbitrary reasons such as gender, skin colour, or in this case, age.

You don't want abortion and contraceptives to be a thing, fix it. Until then, these options are going to have to be needed because the patriarchy are s that leave them hanging.

[Aexodus]

I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame that boogeyman, the patriarchy.

I want contraception to be readily available, and sex education, in order that abortion isnt used as contraception instead.,

[Sogdog]

Simple answer:

It's the woman's choice as it is her body. No one else!
If she has a partner he/she will be there to discuss and lend an ear. Her doctor will be there to discuss and lend an ear.
In the end it is her choice. There is no morals here except for her's.
I'm not pro-abortion but I'm adult enough to know when it's not my business.

[Gaidin]

I was wondering how long it would take for you to blame that boogeyman, the patriarchy.

Facts are facts. Until society stops being a and stops making being them fear having children I have no reason to take your position. Ever.

[Aexodus]

Simple answer:

It's the woman's choice as it is her body. No one else!

But it’s not her body.

[Sogdog]

But it’s not her body.

It is. It's that simple!

[Prodromos]

Unborn baby isn't physically perfect? Welp, time to kill him, I guess. It's what he'd want. It's a merciful killing. My body, my choice.

[Sir Adrian]

It is. It's that simple!

It isn't. She's not killing herself, she's killing her baby. It's her body to the same extent as your body is your mother's.

You cannot come in and claim that only you get to make choices for yourself and then proceed to determine whether somebody lives or dies.

[The spartan]

The Spartan,

What it proves is that Jesus was right in saying that life begins at conception meaning that what is in the womb is a living thing or being. Abortion is another way of making the inconvenient, convenient.

When did Jesus speak on abortion? Care to quote?

You can get an abortion if you think it will cause ‘mental distress’, which is abortion on demand in practice, as we have seen in England where 1 in 5 babies are aborted.

So, it has no legal meaning, it is just a buzzword? I feel like any western country with abortion rights includes the right to an abortion based on the discretion of the mother. What would make "abortion on demand" any different? You know, other than sounding more menacing.

After 5 months they are already fairly babby formed. It's not about protesting at the clinics, it's about admitting that certain biological facts do exist.

And do you know how many abortions take place at 5 months?

It isn't. She's not killing herself, she's killing her baby. It's her body to the same extent as your body is your mother's.

You cannot come in and claim that only you get to make choices for yourself and then proceed to determine whether somebody lives or dies.

I think people are in disagreement over your use of "somebody". Not everyone agrees that a bundle of cells counts as a person, especially in the same context as a full grown woman counts as a person. I personally find the concept that as soon as an egg becomes fertilized it counts as the same moral equivalency to a mature person ridiculous and counter intuitive.

For example; say you are trying to rescue people from a burning building and only have enough time to save one thing. You find an unconscious teenager and a petri dish with several fertilized embryos; is anyone in their right mind seriously going to try to rescue the multiple embryos over a teenage kid? I mean, isn't the argument that they are equally persons?

[Aexodus]

I think the question is, would you save an unconscious teenager, or a pregnant woman

It counts as a separate human, it is a genetically distinct living being

[Prodromos]

I think people are in disagreement over your use of "somebody". Not everyone agrees that a bundle of cells counts as a person, especially in the same context as a full grown woman counts as a person. I personally find the concept that as soon as an egg becomes fertilized it counts as the same moral equivalency to a mature person ridiculous and counter intuitive.

It's generally 'ridiculous and counterintuitive' to regard the outgroup as equal to the ingroup. Many people have no qualms about denying personhood to human beings from other ethnicities or nationalities, or to other humans in general.

For example; say you are trying to rescue people from a burning building and only have enough time to save one thing. You find an unconscious teenager and a petri dish with several fertilized embryos; is anyone in their right mind seriously going to try to rescue the multiple embryos over a teenage kid? I mean, isn't the argument that they are equally persons?

In these cases personhood isn't the only criteria used to figure out which human to save. For instance, most people would save a woman or a child over a grown man. Does that mean that a man is less of a person than a woman or child?

[The spartan]

I think the question is, would you save an unconscious teenager, or a pregnant woman

That wasn't the question.

It counts as a separate human, it is a genetically distinct living being

You are using undefined buzzwords. What exactly do you mean by "genetically distinct living being"? And your authority in declaring a separate human being is lacking.

It's generally 'ridiculous and counterintuitive' to regard the outgroup as equal to the ingroup. Many people have no qualms about denying personhood to human beings from other ethnicities or nationalities, or to other humans in general.

What? The heck is this? Who mentioned anything about ethnicities or nationalities here? I don't consider ethnicity or nationality particularly defining of personhood, when compared to other attributes. Abilities like cognition, ability to communicate, and self-motivation are more important, though that is just a limited list.

In these cases personhood isn't the only criteria used to figure out which human to save. For instance, most people would save a woman or a child over a grown man. Does that mean that a man is less of a person than a woman or child?

This is a conversation we could seriously have, but I am trying to demonstrate the extremes of difference. I don't think anyone here would choose even hundreds of fertilized embryos over a teenager or child. That is to say, no matter the values we put on individuals as a society, we hold men, women, and children as being far more morally comparable than any are to a fertilized embryo.

[Elfdude]

It isn't. She's not killing herself, she's killing her baby. It's her body to the same extent as your body is your mother's.

You cannot come in and claim that only you get to make choices for yourself and then proceed to determine whether somebody lives or dies.

The difference is without her body the baby is inviable while a foetus until about 20 weeks. Whereas you're not an obligatory parasite to your mother after you're born (I hope). I think it's hilarious that you argue for individual rights of a fetus while ignoring that you're arguing about taking away autonomy from the mother. That's the most hypocritical backwards perspective I've encountered in a long time.

[Roma_Victrix]

I won't get into the argument about whether or not an unborn fetus in the womb is a human being yet or not, but surely even the people who say abortion is evil/wrong/murder/etc. shudder at the thought of a 15-year-old girl giving birth to a child after her father raped her? Right? No? I've yet to come across anyone who actually holds this position, but I know that some people do according to polling. It's chilling. Women also have complications from pregnancies that can lead to their death. I think it should be entirely within the choice of the mother what to do with her own body, especially when we're talking about life or death here in certain medical cases. The thing that really propelled Ireland's recent repeal of abortion via the popular referendum was the case of that Indian woman who died from a septic miscarriage. Even if you're against abortion, surely you have to admit that a teenage girl attending high school/secondary school is going to have a crap life if she has to give birth to a child halfway through her schooling. Even if she gives the child up for adoption afterwards, the emotional toll of that would be immense, especially the very idea of just giving your child away.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

And the children of these teenage moms will have very early childs too, because Mom is always away with their two or more jobs.

[basics]

The Spartan,

When Jesus said to the leaders of Israel that they were conceived in sin and when David said that he, David, was conceived in sin, then sin infers the taking over of a nature by another and so that nature whatever it was is now in sin as a living body. And, when God gave us the commandment, " Thou shalt not kill," it makes abortion outside God's Law whether we like it or not because that fetus is a living thing.