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  1. #1
    Laetus
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    Default A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    How come many of the Germanic rebel factions such as the Heruskoz and Hattoz reply in Gaulish and the majority of their warriors are celts? Shouldn't they reply in Proto-Germanic and have Germanic warriors?
    Same question about the rebels near the Vistula. They reply in Gaulish and have mostly celts in their armies. Is this historical?

    As for the Lugians, what language are they supposed to speak? Names like Toutaginoi and Kareus sound Celtic to me, and these units reply in Gaulish. Or is it supposed to be in reconstructed proto-Gothic/East Germanic?

    Overall a great mod though!

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    I'm waiting for the team to respond formally, but many of those places weren't "Germanic" at the start of our period. It's all pretty complicated, depending on whether you're trying to identify ethnicities or language groups, compounded by the paucity of non-archeological information.

  4. #4
    Laetus
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    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    True enough, what was to become Southern Germania was during this time Celtic (and the tribes living there at the start of the game are correctly named Ubioi, Boioi, Elleuetoi, Kotinuoi and Raurakoi). But the tribes known in the game as Hêruskoz, Markamannoz, Silêngoz, Krimbrioz, Skándzáwárjoz, Bástárnoz, Gotones and also likely the Lougiones (P-G: Leugoz) were all Germanic. The ones near the Rhine were probably influenced by Celtic culture, that's true, but that doesn't make them celts. Their rulers should have Germanic names (Hárjawulfáz and Athálberthoz, not Nammeios and Gaesos), their armies should speak Proto-Germanic when you click on them, and the buildings in their settlements should be mainly germanic. At least if you'd ask me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    The Lugiones were most certainly not Germanic at 272BC. They were too La Tene influenced for that, and Germanic intrusion into that area doesn't happen until much later--there's no reason to believe that they're Germanic speakers at game start. East Germanic didn't even exist in 272 BC. Now were they Celtic speakers? No idea--at least their elites in the early period probably spoke a Celtic language(or were bilingual with Celtic being a 2nd language), and they probably weren't Celts either, but they are most certainly not German at 272 BC, that's for sure. Now should they use the PGIE or Gaulish voicemod? No idea. We just don't know what language they spoke, but what we do know is that they start out Celticized, and end up Germanized before the end date due to Jastorf migration+ waning La Tene influence--but they are indigenous locals in either case, probably neither Celtic nor German. If you'd like me to provide sources stating just how Celticized the Lugians were early on, then I can provide them--there's a lot of archaeological evidence to suggest that. By the way, the Przeworsk(closest archaeological term for Lugians we have) culture didn't even exist at 272BC, it's genesis happened a bit later(mid 3rd century I believe?), and is believed to be closely linked to a rapid adoption of La Tene culture/technology.

    It's too early for those rovers to be Germanic is the thing. Celtic names were likely a better fit because Jastorf influence just didn't reach that far south yet. Hell, even our German FC(s) have discussed in the past(AFAIK) just how far they are stretching Jastorf culture by allowing it to exist at the start date(much of the data used in faction and unit concepting is dated well past 272BC AFAIK), and for a province as big as the Sweboz starting province to represent that culture at 272BC is also a big stretch needed to allow the Sweboz to exist that early on. The Rhineland rovers you're taking issue with were more Celticized than Germanized at that point...But here's the thing, they probably weren't "ethnic" Germans at that point either. So why in the world would Germanic names be more suitable than Celtic names other than due to the rover names(likely we didn't know what else to call them)? Once again, like the above case for the Lugians, the locals living around the Rhineland at 272BC were probably, AFAIK, neither Celtic nor Germanic, just indigenous locals(just who they were is anyone's guess, but they probably weren't Celtic or German). At 272BC due to La Tene influence they were Celticized, but later on, like the Lugians, as Germans migrated south, they became Germanized and became recognized as Germans themselves by the Romans. Thus, don't Celtic names make more sense earlier on? I mean, they adopted Germanized names after Germanization happened, so why wouldn't they adopt Celticized names whilst under La Tene influence in the early period? A Celtic name doesn't necessarily imply that they were "ethnic"(a much blurrier word back then) Celts. At any rate, they definitely weren't Germans at 272BC so German names are probably more nonsensical than Celtic ones. The "Celto-Germanic" recruitment pools available in Luppae, Ubioidunon and Bogadunon are a better fit than a purely Celtic one, especially since we don't have any indigenous units for those provinces except for the later Celto-Germanic ones, the German units there are probably the closest thing we have to how they fought(there are MANY areas like this in game, such as Merimeke/Jukelitna...There's no way Przeworsk/Jastorf units were found there, but due to our 500 unit cap and other limiting factors, they are the best fit for the region ATM).

    In both cases, according to my admittedly limited knowledge, they involve indigenous peoples who were first Latenised and then Germanized later on as La Tene influence waned and German influence expanded-- both adopting many aspects of the dominant culture at the time.

    As well, some of the areas you've mentioned are slated to be where Celto-Germanic units appear(they're a result of waning La Tene influence+growing German influence). If there weren't Celtic or Celticized peoples living there in the first place, those units wouldn't make any sense(we have good archaeological evidence for such cultural fusion units--the Chatti are one such group)--the Celto-Germanic events wouldn't even happen because it would be German on German mixing. These Celto-Germanic events happened chiefly due to the collapse of the East Celt oppida culture(eg. Zavist) and the result of waning La Tene influence+ the growing German cultural dominance in the area. These were Celtic or Celticized peoples who became Germanized afterwards.

    EDIT: The Celto-Germanic question is another very confusing/debatable topic we've had though... "Celto-Germanic" peoples did come to exist after the collapse of the celtic oppida culture and the rise of Germanic influence, but there's lots of debate about the whole subject.

    Toutaginos and Kareus aren't Celtic words by the way. Teuta- is a PIE word and Touta/Teuta is preserved in proto-Celtic--Touta/Teuta a very very old word. Kareus is Old Prussian with some proto-Celtic/Gaulish cognates. As mentioned above, the Lugiones weren't German speakers at 272BC, so German unit names that early on don't make any sense(in fact, Celticized names make more sense in the early period given how heavily Latenised they are early on). At any rate, The Lugians are undergoing a big overhaul ATM, that includes unit names as well.

    Regarding the Basternai--I'm not even gonna touch that one(meaning it's a very debatable, or rather confusing, topic). AFAIK they were heavily influenced by La Tene culture early on as well(I believe Arjos even mentioned that he believes the Celto-Scythians described in a certain paper discussing La Tene finds in the Ukraine that I have saved on my computer could actually have been Basternai instead of Celts), and are sometimes referred to as Celto-Scythians in certain scholarly articles(AFAIK). We've had lots of inconclusive debates about them in the past. They probably weren't "ethnically" Celtic, and the proposed model of their original migration path SE seems to place them coming from Germany IIRC.

    The Gaulish rebels near the Vistula must be Duratios' army in Wenetwa, right? I'm also clueless as to why he has so many Celtic units and a Celtic BG that far east, in an area well outside the furthest bounds of La Tene influence. Maybe it wouldn't be so hard to accept if that rover was in Silesia or something, which is about as far NE as La Tene influence spread in Central Europe. If it is Duratios you're talking about, I've raised that point many times in the playtesting thread--it seems to be a mystery as to why he's Celtic and has Celtic units in his army.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; April 28, 2018 at 12:25 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    Some sources with respect to what I mentioned above about the early Przeworsk/Lugians:

    https://www.academia.edu/4115218/The...-Warszawa_2010

    https://www.academia.edu/1563487/Ear...e-Roman_Period (paper can be downloaded with a free account on academia.edu but can't be viewed on academia.edu for some reason--google scholar should have other copies of this one)

    From one of our inactive Celtic FCs, Power2The1:

    just thought I'd share. This is from a book called Ancient Europe: Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World. I had it on .pdf for a long time and kinda forgot about it. Its a great read for getting an overview on 8000 B.C. to 1000 A.D.


    IRON AGE POLAND




    PRE-ROMAN IRON AGE

    In the south, “Pomeranians” met Celtic newcomers, who had settled in Silesia in the fourth century
    B.C. About a hundred years later the next wave of the La Tène culture bearers settled in Little Poland. Farther north a small Celtic colony existed in Kujavia. This dispersed northeastern avant-garde of the great European civilization introduced new technological and cultural achievements—very fine wheelturned pottery, a double-chambered oven for firing pots, production of glass, fine smith techniques, large-scale iron smelting, new decoration motifs, coinage, new arms (long swords and helmets), and the organization of regional cult centers (e.g., the S´le˛z˙ a Mountain in Silesia, known for numerous stone sculptures). Important progress in agriculture was made possible by improved plowing tools, manuring of fields, and rotational querns. These “Celtic” settlements were rather small, and their inhabitants lived in relative isolation from their autochthonous neighbors, who seemed to ignore the new technological offerings. Typical flat cemeteries with skeleton burials oriented north to south have been found to contain rich goods.

    The Pre-Roman Age (earlier called “La Tène period,” lasting from 400 B.C. to the turn of the millennium) saw important culture changes elsewhere in Polish lands. During the third century B.C. the last enclaves of the Lusatian culture and the mainstream Pomeranian culture disappeared, even though its regional survivors lasted until the midsecond century B.C. Those changes were caused by new cultural influences in the west. Along the Oder River, as early as the early third century B.C., Pomeranian societies were replaced by two groups of the Proto-Germanic Jastorf culture, expanding from its cradle in Jutland and northern Germany. It probably was this new influence that prompted further development, resulting in the formation of two new cultures.

    Of these two, the Przeworsk culture was the more successful in its territorial expansion and the more durable (lasting more than six centuries). It originated somewhere in central Poland in the second half of the third century B.C. During its early phases it developed under the strong influence of Celtic traditions. In Tyniec, near Kraków, there lived a mixed Celto-Przeworsk society that introduced oats into Polish lands. During this early period cemeteries were flat, with simple pit graves that usually lacked urns. Even stronger was the Jastorfian impact in the north, where the Oksywie culture formed in the lower Vistula region. It is known only from its cemeteries, where women and men were buried according to distinctively different rites. Cremated female bones were put in simple pits, while the males were buried in urns. Stone covers or standing stelae are characteristic of these graves. This culture later gave birth to the Wielbark culture, identified with the Goths. Both Przeworsk and Oksywie cultures sometimes are listed under the common name “Pit Grave culture.”
    With respect to the Basternai question(I decided to touch this deadly topic after all...) and their Germanic character, first lets look at their proposed migration path:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrr View Post
    Basternai march according to prof Kokowski research.

    [SPOIL]

    [/SPOIL]
    Here's a link discussing both the Przeworsk/Lugians and Bastarnae:

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.ed...bbard_from.pdf

    A LaTènised community of а Przeworsk culture occupied а vast territory of the modern-day Poland. During the last decades of the first century ВС the Przeworsk culture bearers (probably of the Eastern Germanic origin) penetrated into the Upper Dniester area where they had соmе into close contact with the local Dacian population (Lypytsya culture) and the Bastarnae Poieneşt-Lukashevka culture). The latter are considered to be a mixed ethnic group of Germanic, Celtic, and Gethic origin or even a separate people “between Celts and Germans” (Schukin 2005: 61). It is pointed out that the Przeworsk culture bearers from the Upper Dniester area adopted the Bastarnae ethnicon shortly after a decline of Poieneşti-Lukashevka culture in the late first century BC (Schukin 1994: 227-232).
    Worth noting the date when the author mentions when he talks about the supposed East Germanic origin of the Przeworsk culture--in the last decades of the 1st century BC they had already undergone a process of Germanization(the La Tene world was in steep decline by that point AFAIK).

    The most significant aspect of the Celtic episode in the history of the Ukraine is а great La Tène impact on the local archaeological cultures. From the late thirdcentury ВС on the vast territories of Eastern Europe the Przeworsk, Poieneşti-Lukashevka, and Zarubyntsi cultures emerged and the La Tène influence on their burial rite, metalworking, and pottery making was insomuch as those cultures are frequently referred to as the communities of “Celtic fringe”.
    There is also this paper on Ukrainian La Tene finds(this and another Rustoiu paper were the basis for the new CelticMercPontic trait):
    CELTIC MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM THE TERRITORY OF UKRAINE: TOWARDS A NEW WARRIOR IDENTITYIN THE PRE-ROMAN EASTERN EUROPE:
    GENNADIY KAZAKEVICH

    In the early second century BC, the Poieneşti-Lukashevka(Basternai) and Zarubynci cultures emerged in the lands of Eastern Europe. The La Tène traditions of Temperate and South-Eastern Europe influenced both cultures to a great extent, but this was especially true in the case of the Zarubynci one. The bearers of the Poieneşti-Lukashevka and Zarubynci cultures adopted the wire middle La Tène brooches which are among the most widespread findings of the third-first centuries BC metalwork in the Eastern Europe. The Zarubynci culture bearers used to wear the middle La Tène fibulae with the triangular ending of stem (the so-called “fibula of the Zarubynci type”). Outside of the Zarybynci culture area such fibulae are known only in the lands of Scordisci in Middle Danube area. The La Tène influence is also evident in the funeral rite and pottery-making of the Zarubynci culture (see Pachkova 2006: 340-47). Hardly anything could be said about the military traditions of those cultures as the findings of weapons are scarce.
    There is also "Celtic Coinage from Ukraine" by Mac Congail:

    In the occupation layers at the Celtic settlement at Gut (Garazdivka, Beregivs’ kyj district) over 100 Celtic coins of the „‟Philip II type‟‟ were discovered in a ceramic vessel, among them examples of the Huşi-Vorieşti type attributed to the Celto-Scythian Bastarnae (loc cit). The latter type have recently been discovered in hoards along with other Celtic coins at sites such as Pelczyska in southern Poland (Rudnicki 2003; See ‘The Celts in Poland’ article) and the examples from Gut are further evidence of the close political and economic links between the Bastarnae and other Celtic tribes north of the Carpathians.
    Bastarnae
    And "Celto-Scythians and Celticization in Ukraine and the North Pontic Region" by Brendan Mac Gonagle(2015):

    From the beginning of the 3rd century BC the territory of today’s Ukraine, previously defined by theScythi ans of the North Pontic steppes and Hellenistic influences from the Black Sea zone, was supplemented
    by the Celtic culture from the west. The influence of the latter can be roughly divided into 2 separate spheres— the area of today’s Western Ukraine, where comprehensive evidence of Celtic migration/settlement is to
    be observed, and the central/eastern part where La Têne material testifies to the presence of small Celtic groups, and the development of a Celto-Scythian (Bastarnae) population, well attested to in ancient historical
    sources.
    To summarize what I think we know about the Basternai:

    1)The proposed model has them migrating out of Germany, through Poland and then eventually towards Ukraine and the Black Sea region. I believe we on the team discussed that this migration might have taken ~100 years total--it definitely didn't happen over night.
    2)They were very La Tene influenced early on and it can be difficult to distinguish between actual La Tene sites and Basternai sites the further east you go into Ukraine and Russia, since the Basternai have such a strong La Tene cultural element(this is why several of our historians were skeptical over Ukrainian La Tene finds; La Tene settlements are fairly apparent in the western part of in-game Tyragetia--Klepidava's province-- but just how much of those La Tene grave goods further east of that can instead be attributed to the Celto-Scythian Basternai?).
    3)They were most certainly "Skythianized" or "Sarmatianized" by the local steppe nomads once they migrated far enough; interbreeding with them and eventually certain "traditional" nomadic ethnic groups even joined the Basternai confederation AFAIK.
    4)Later on, as Germanic influence grows in prominence across Northern Europe, and La Tene culture declines, they were probably Germanized(again???)
    5)They were polyethnic, and seemed to be influenced by just about everyone they met.

    So...Is it safe to say that they were "Germans" at 272BC and that they spoke a Germanic language? No idea. They are a confusing, polyethnic people who were very latenised(but also skythianized/sarmatianized), so who knows what language they spoke at 272BC(or even around the 220s when they arrive near the Black Sea). Were they Germans? They might have had a Germanic origin, but they are most likely one of the most "race-mixed" peoples we have units for on the map. At any rate, much like the Lugians and the Rhineland peoples pre-Germanization, they possessed a noticeable La Tene cultural element.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; April 29, 2018 at 11:53 AM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    I love it when the team gives a very detailed response.

    My question is, what about the germanic culture was so attractive that the celtizied or other populations would abandon their own culture for the germanic one.
    Was it because of the germanic tribes conquering their neighbors or was it that the germanic culture was more attractive.

  8. #8
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    Quote Originally Posted by (:Baktra:) View Post
    I love it when the team gives a very detailed response.

    My question is, what about the germanic culture was so attractive that the celtizied or other populations would abandon their own culture for the germanic one.
    Was it because of the germanic tribes conquering their neighbors or was it that the germanic culture was more attractive.
    As you can see here, germanic culture were strongly influenced by celtic culture before to rise and to flourish on their own:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...eboz-preview-I
    http://www.kelticos.org/forum/viewto...31be4b7#p20624

    Both had their golden age.
    LOTR mod for Shogun 2 Total War (Campaign and Battles!)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIywmAgUxQU

  9. #9

    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    My question is, what about the germanic culture was so attractive that the celtizied or other populations would abandon their own culture for the germanic one.
    Was it because of the germanic tribes conquering their neighbors or was it that the germanic culture was more attractive.
    Hmm, I'm not totally sure, but La Tene culture began to decline towards the mid 1st Century BC AFAIK.

    Here's a few old posts by Brennus on the decline of La Tene culture:

    Yes. Southern Germany becomes effectively sterile of La Tene culture in the first half of the 1st century BC, with Bohemia becoming so by the mid 1st century BC, after which point Germanic speakers move in and develop the Suddeutsche Spater Eisenzeit culture. In Gaul the La Tene cultures merge with Roman influences to form the Gallo-Roman archaeology of provincial Gaul.
    In addition to this, I would note that it seems that peoples in Bohemia and southern Germany adopted regional forms of Germanic culture and language due to the collapse of the long distance exchange systems which had supported the area from Berry to Moravia. In contrast to the late La Tene reliance on long distance exchanges, Germanic society appears to have operated on a much more local scale, often centred around individuals than larger social entities. We know that in northern France, Austria and possibly Britain the supply of iron was reliant upon exchanges across long distances, and the collapse of similar systems in Germany and Bohemia may have led people to adopt the Germanic weapon panoply (combined with the social changes mentioned above in which individuals expressed their power with weaponry).

    I would be happier tying Celto-Germanic units to a Sweboz expansion, rather than an historical point; it makes little sense to have Celto-Germanics available if the Sweboz have been destroyed and northern Europe is under the dominion of a Celtic empire.
    So essentially, it was mainly that La Tene culture was in a major decline the further towards the mod's end date you go, combined with an expansionist Germanic culture. Germanic peoples filled the power vacuum created by the collapse of the Eastern/Rhine portion of La Tene influence/culture. With the La Tene world in Central and Eastern Europe now effectively dead, and a steady stream of German migrants moving out of N. Germania in all directions, peoples such as the Lugians/Przeworsk culture in turn became Germanized since the La Tene influence which once helped create their culture had disappeared. This meant that their old economic trade links with towards the La Tene culture bearers further south had dried up(there's lots of evidence of Boii coins being found in Poland, as well as Iron-working trade links between the two cultures AFAIK), and they probably increasingly relied on trade from Germanic locals instead; this also probably meant that speaking a Celtic language as an elite was more and more meaningless since there were no longer any "Celts" left to trade with.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; April 30, 2018 at 08:22 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: A few questions about rebels factions in Germania and the Lougiones/Lugians

    Thanks, that was very interesting.
    I should do some reading on the fall of the La Tene Culture.

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