Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 38 of 38

Thread: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

  1. #21
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    13,263

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    With these illustrations, you can really see where EBII got it's inspiration for a lot of their units, especially for the Iberian ones. Some of them are just dead ringers. Some of it is rather odd, though. I can understand why the pre-Indo-European Iberian tribes like the Lusitani are olive-skinned and such, being related to the general Neolithic farming population groups that inhabited the Mediterranean before the Indo-European migrations. However, why are some of the Celtiberian units darker and swarthier looking than them? The Celtiberians were Celtic peoples and would have looked not much different than Gauls, Britons, and Galatians in terms of attributes, phenotypes, and shared genetics.

  2. #22
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Geneva
    Posts
    642

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    With these illustrations, you can really see where EBII got it's inspiration for a lot of their units, especially for the Iberian ones. Some of them are just dead ringers. Some of it is rather odd, though. I can understand why the pre-Indo-European Iberian tribes like the Lusitani are olive-skinned and such, being related to the general Neolithic farming population groups that inhabited the Mediterranean before the Indo-European migrations. However, why are some of the Celtiberian units darker and swarthier looking than them? The Celtiberians were Celtic peoples and would have looked not much different than Gauls, Britons, and Galatians in terms of attributes, phenotypes, and shared genetics.
    Hard to say exactly where the Celtiberian come from and when they got a connection with the celtic world. We didn't even know exactly when the celtic languages have emerged. Is it before Hallstatt (1000-500 BC)? Is it during the period of the Bell Beaker culture (3000-1800 BC)? Is it during the Urnfield culture (1300-800 BC) or during the Tumulus culture (1700 - 1200 BC) ?

    And there is the question of the connection between culture and population fluxes. Are the Celts genetic distincts or are they a patchwork of several migrations? The Celtic culture could have been adopted by a bunch of several indo-european populations. And is it necessarily a change of the genetic with adoption of Celtic culture by some iberic populations?

    Clearly, the answer is very complex, look at the difference between Iberia and British isles during the migrations of Bell Beaker populations:
    https://phys.org/news/2018-03-geneti...s-central.html
    https://phys.org/news/2018-02-ancien...s-migrant.html

    If you are more interested about this debate, I suggest you some good readings:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03773-6
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03857-3
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  3. #23
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    13,263

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hard to say exactly where the Celtiberian come from and when they got a connection with the celtic world. We didn't even know exactly when the celtic languages have emerged. Is it before Hallstatt (1000-500 BC)? Is it during the period of the Bell Beaker culture (3000-1800 BC)? Is it during the Urnfield culture (1300-800 BC) or during the Tumulus culture (1700 - 1200 BC) ?

    And there is the question of the connection between culture and population fluxes. Are the Celts genetic distincts or are they a patchwork of several migrations? The Celtic culture could have been adopted by a bunch of several indo-european populations. And is it necessarily a change of the genetic with adoption of Celtic culture by some iberic populations?

    Clearly, the answer is very complex, look at the difference between Iberia and British isles during the migrations of Bell Beaker populations:
    https://phys.org/news/2018-03-geneti...s-central.html
    https://phys.org/news/2018-02-ancien...s-migrant.html

    If you are more interested about this debate, I suggest you some good readings:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03773-6
    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-03857-3
    Thank you for the response, the explanation, and the links. Unfortunately the latter probably raise more questions than they answer!

    In either case, if I were the Chinese I'd be livid with this thread. After all, the Hellenistic period in the Mediterranean (ending in 30 BC with the death of Cleopatra) coincided with the end of the Warring States, the Qin Dynasty, and most of the Western Han dynasty (but not the early 1st-century AD interregnum of the Xin dynasty before the Eastern Han restoration). Where are the Qin and Han Chinese soldiers! Why don't they get their day in the sun/post in this thread.

    India gets ignored here too, but at least there are some good Seleucid and Parthian Empire stuff to represent the "East".

  4. #24
    Morrowgan's Avatar Ordinarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    749

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Don't forget the whole Meroe debate
    Member of the Beyond Skyrim Project

  5. #25

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    With these illustrations, you can really see where EBII got it's inspiration for a lot of their units, especially for the Iberian ones. Some of them are just dead ringers. Some of it is rather odd, though. I can understand why the pre-Indo-European Iberian tribes like the Lusitani are olive-skinned and such, being related to the general Neolithic farming population groups that inhabited the Mediterranean before the Indo-European migrations. However, why are some of the Celtiberian units darker and swarthier looking than them? The Celtiberians were Celtic peoples and would have looked not much different than Gauls, Britons, and Galatians in terms of attributes, phenotypes, and shared genetics.
    Maybe inspiration from Angus McBride's images, whose "Iberians" inexplicably all look like Mexicans (also, his Gauls look like Dwarves). IMO a significant portion of "Osprey-book-type" images of ancient warriors (that are fairly accurate in terms of panoply, weapons, clothing etc.) are only middling in terms of artistic quality, including the anatomy of people and horses.
    Personally, I'd expect Celtiberians to look like a mixture of Central European and Mediterranean types, i.e. basically like the local Spaniards inhabiting the region today.

  6. #26
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Geneva
    Posts
    642

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    IMO a significant portion of "Osprey-book-type" images of ancient warriors (that are fairly accurate in terms of panoply, weapons, clothing etc.) are only middling in terms of artistic quality, including the anatomy of people and horses.
    Hell no. Osprey is one of the worst about the panoply. One example with one the last publication on Alesia (published in 2014).


    Rounded shield => no evidence for the LaTène continental Celts. There is also poor choice in the umbones and the helmets. They choose to represent almost entirely all the bronze helmets that are difficult to identify to celt or roman warriors. It is the best way to do something wrong and useless. And they missed all the other elements of the celtic panoply of the LaTène D period (end of the 1st century BC).

    I prefere the work of french historians because they are closer from the material they are studying (and as they are inept to publish in english and as english historians are inept to read french, there is no other solution yet).



    In: L'armée de César pendant la guerre des gaules, Edition Historic'one
    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hell no. Osprey is one of the worst about the panoply. One example with one the last publication on Alesia (published in 2014).
    Well maybe. Haven't read many of those. That was really not my point, though (also, I deliberately chose a vague term).

    If you know more (books with) illustrations that are more historically accurate than Osprey, and more anatomically/ethnically accurate than McBride&Co., feel free to link them here. An additional explanation pointing out why they are better would be good, though. Personally, I don't care about the language (understand French well enough if I have to), although English is racially superior, of course Anyone who wants to study European history should have basic reading comprehension of French and German (and ideally Italian) anyway.

  8. #28
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Posts
    13,263

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrowgan View Post
    Don't forget the whole Meroe debate
    Woah there bro: did you just assume my Kushite gender?

    Seriously, though, they are relevant to the EB II time frame, considering the five-year war waged against Augustus' forces in Egypt by the Kushite Queen Amanirenas. Her war against the Romans was even initially successful until the Romans counterattacked and invaded Nubia itself (capturing the region around Napata). Only then, from Meroe, did Amanirenas relent and accept a treaty, but the peace terms were highly favorable to the Kushites.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Maybe inspiration from Angus McBride's images, whose "Iberians" inexplicably all look like Mexicans (also, his Gauls look like Dwarves). IMO a significant portion of "Osprey-book-type" images of ancient warriors (that are fairly accurate in terms of panoply, weapons, clothing etc.) are only middling in terms of artistic quality, including the anatomy of people and horses.
    Personally, I'd expect Celtiberians to look like a mixture of Central European and Mediterranean types, i.e. basically like the local Spaniards inhabiting the region today.
    My thoughts exactly!

    That being said, I'd also like the game to cater to my unique tastes, with local Tanit-looking queens as leaders of Iberians, preferably looking like Spanish supermodel Clara Alonso.

    https://78.media.tumblr.com/5a616d27...1r3do1_500.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Hell no. Osprey is one of the worst about the panoply. One example with one the last publication on Alesia (published in 2014).


    Rounded shield => no evidence for the LaTène continental Celts. There is also poor choice in the umbones and the helmets. They choose to represent almost entirely all the bronze helmets that are difficult to identify to celt or roman warriors. It is the best way to do something wrong and useless. And they missed all the other elements of the celtic panoply of the LaTène D period (end of the 1st century BC).
    Well, I do see one Celtic warrior there wearing an iron helmet, but I suppose you're right!

    Down with Osprey! Down with the English oppressors! Osprey deserves scorn anyway, since they gripe, complain, and get all litigious instead of being eternally grateful when members of our forum show pictures of their shoddy work. I mean, hello, free publicity and advertising. Otherwise who else besides the mothers of impressionable middle school children and mentally handicapped people would want to buy their garbage "popular" history books? That's some expensive toilet paper right there!

  9. #29

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Thank you for the response, the explanation, and the links. Unfortunately the latter probably raise more questions than they answer!

    In either case, if I were the Chinese I'd be livid with this thread. After all, the Hellenistic period in the Mediterranean (ending in 30 BC with the death of Cleopatra) coincided with the end of the Warring States, the Qin Dynasty, and most of the Western Han dynasty (but not the early 1st-century AD interregnum of the Xin dynasty before the Eastern Han restoration). Where are the Qin and Han Chinese soldiers! Why don't they get their day in the sun/post in this thread.

    India gets ignored here too, but at least there are some good Seleucid and Parthian Empire stuff to represent the "East".

    Of course, I only put those factions that are in the scope of the mod and i've added indian/mauryan illustrations.

    You can also check my second thread, that also has further Indian/mauryan illustrations.

  10. #30
    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Geneva
    Posts
    642

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Thank you for the response, the explanation, and the links. Unfortunately the latter probably raise more questions than they answer!
    More recently, another study about genetic in the Iberian Peninsula:

    https://phys.org/news/2019-03-ancien...ht-iberia.html
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/s...ppe-men-spain/

    Study: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

    The true heroes of science are the defenders of open-access like
    Alexandra Elbakyan. Even in my country, Switzerland, we cannot afford the access to all the publishers material. Sci-hub and Library Genesis help thousands of researchers in the world. Support them.

  11. #31
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,226

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Genava again. - Argh... I blame climate change for this! Interesting nevertheless.

    By the way some of those images are pre-Hellenistic, sorry for nitpicking, also one of the images seem to feature it, and I'm not quite sure that Tower of Babel was real folks.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  12. #32

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Genava again. - Argh... I blame climate change for this! Interesting nevertheless.

    By the way some of those images are pre-Hellenistic, sorry for nitpicking, also one of the images seem to feature it, and I'm not quite sure that Tower of Babel was real folks.
    I'm pretty shure that's Etemenaki.

  13. #33
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    607

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    And there I was looking for a certain image of a Carthaginian siege to redo the event images until I found it in this thread. Thanks! +1 rep from me

  14. #34

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    There is a second thread if you want more.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...2#post15661962

    I'm glad to help.

  15. #35
    Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σωτήρ's Avatar Yeah science!
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Άργος - Ἑλλάς
    Posts
    1,226

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by NapoleonMaster View Post
    I'm pretty shure that's Etemenaki.
    On the very dark image depicting a storm right next to the Etemenanki there's a spiraling building enveloped by the storm alluding to the destruction of the Tower of Babel.
    It's a well done image artistically nevertheless, however apart from the tower itself it has clothing inaccuracies and the pillars appear more of Egyptian style rather than Mesopotamian, also, here I might be wrong, but some of the Trees are from the Mediterranean and should not be found that far East. - Now that was some extra nitpicking!

    Nevertheless you would be hard-pressed to find accurate images anyway, most of the artists usually make errors when it comes to certain errors, some a few centuries, some a few millennia.
    Last edited by Ἀπολλόδοτος Α΄ ὁ Σω July 02, 2019 at 07:12 AM.
    "First get your facts straight, then distort them at your leisure." - Mark Twain

    οὐκ ἦν μὲν ἐγώ, νῦν δ' εἰμί· τότε δ' ούκ ἔσομαι, ούδέ μοι μελήσει

  16. #36
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    607

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by NapoleonMaster View Post
    There is a second thread if you want more.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...2#post15661962

    I'm glad to help.
    Thanks. Those are basically all the Carthaginian images one can find on pinterest over and over. It's a bit sad to think that there are very few images related with Carthage. Anyway, only accurate reenactments seems to bring something new nowadays.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Thanks. Those are basically all the Carthaginian images one can find on pinterest over and over. It's a bit sad to think that there are very few images related with Carthage. Anyway, only accurate reenactments seems to bring something new nowadays.
    I still find new ones from time to time in other websites but yes, Rome holds supremacy with artists.

    Like these ones :













  18. #38
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Portugal
    Posts
    607

    Default Re: Ilustrations and images of the Hellenistic Period.

    Now that's some really nice artwork that I had never seen. Thanks! I would rep you twice if I could!
    Last edited by Lusitanio; July 02, 2019 at 04:08 PM.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •