Pax Graeca Hoplite - Peace through hoplite

[Frtigern]

I was wondering what factions have the most variety of hoplites as well as easy access to recruit native hoplites? Doesn't have to be just Greeks as hoplites. It has to be a Hellenic faction as I am planning on role-playing a Classical Greek "renaissance" of bringing back the glory of the Graeco world of the 5th and 4th centuries where I conquer every settlement with a Greek presence using only pre-phalangite armies. Focus will be Mediterranean but also Black Sea and the Egyptian coast of the Red Sea controlled by the Ptolemaics. Holding at Trapezous-Antiochia line until western empire is consolidated and then conquering the eastern lands.

[Rad]

If it's pax and graeca, you're already under Rome's boot... caliga.

[QuintusSertorius]

Access to hoplites and other Greek units comes largely from the polis, so it doesn't make any difference which Hellenistic faction you are, it's the same for all of them. However, KH can't build new polis', so you're limited by what's on the map already.

[Frtigern]

If it's pax and graeca, you're already under Rome's boot... caliga.

Never! Those wolf pups will be no match for my phalanx!

Access to hoplites and other Greek units comes largely from the polis, so it doesn't make any difference which Hellenistic faction you are, it's the same for all of them. However, KH can't build new polis', so you're limited by what's on the map already.

Got it, so don't play as KH then.

[Lyathon]

Baktria has a lot of different hoplite-y units

[Hellenikon]

Most hoplite units disappear after the thureos reforms, or they availability is extremely limited. One of the few places where they're still available is in Sparte through their own laconian hoplites. I think KH is the only faction where doing this would make any sense, both gameplay wise and alternate history wise.

[Jervaj]

Most hoplite units disappear after the thureos reforms, or they availability is extremely limited. One of the few places where they're still available is in Sparte through their own laconian hoplites. I think KH is the only faction where doing this would make any sense, both gameplay wise and alternate history wise.

And where their Elite and Bodyguard unit is an hoplite even after the reform.

They are the more hoplite based faction in general. So I found funny it was the first one discarded for an hoplite based game xD

[Frtigern]

I've noticed that KH has a smaller hoplite roster than Hellenic factions and that Carthage may actually match Hellenes in variety of hoplites, although they are distinctly not-Greek. I'm not restricting it to spearman and tight formation, but all hoplon carrying units. I thought it was interesting when I saw this unit in there. What is this and how do you recruit it? I've been using the recruitment viewer but not sure how up to date it is with the current version.

[Jervaj]

Thats a regional unit from southwestern italy. You can recruit it in Capua, Rhegion and Messana I think. In north italy you can aslo recruit Etruscan hoplites (Tvrm Pes rasna).

Why do you say KH has a smaller hoplite roster than other hellenic factions though? They have the standard, the haploi, the elite, the lakonikoi (after the reforms) and the bodyguards + regionals depending on where you expand and the goverments you set. The only hoplites that other hellensitics have in their core rosters I think are the Hypaspistai that replace the elite hoplites, are much more restricted in where you can get them (as its only in your best goverment of which you are gonna have 1-3 as you grow in size) and dissapear for everybody but makedonia with reforms, and the Pahropan i Balk for Baktria that you can get only from 2 places and replaces the former 2.


KH maybe has the distinction of starting in the core hellenic zone so until you expand out of there you are gonna have mostly only hellenic hoplites, but their roster is naturally more centered around them and you maintain more after the reforms. It may be just me, but my armies are far more hoplite heavy when I play with them than anyone else.


Carthage does have a solid quantity of them indeed if you dont mind been non hellenic. Specially if you expand and grab the italian ones.

[Rad]

Carthage - the best faction when it comes to easy access to a lot of different units.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

The problem with KH is that they have less "free upkeep units" slots because they only rely on polis buildings for recruitment and have no "military colonies" buildings, so your hoplites (the "traditional" ones, those who are not elite) effectively cost more to maintain than for other factions.
KH can't create "polis" but they can upgrade even minor polis so if you take back the ancient colonies and any settlement where minor polis is present and upgrade it to a metroplis.
But if your goal is to "reconquer" magna graecia and every places where greek world has been influent, you have the best faction : they still have access to a fair roaster of hoplites after the thureos reforms, including the Chosen Hoplites elites.
All you have to do is to understand the prerequisits for KH political reform.

Concerning other factions :

- Pergamon : I used starting at Massalia, and they can build the highest gov building almost anywhere (within the "empire size limitations" of course). But you need to start the game by destroying everyone in western anatolia and take it over OR by fighting galatian rebels several times before starting your real campaign.
- Seleucids/Bactria : their zone of influence is only defined as "satrapy". Meaning that you risk having a lot of problems when you will reach western parts of the map.
- Ptolemaic kingdom : works well but has a "egyptian" feeling that may remove your hellenic patriotism for a more "universal" kind of kingdom.
- Makedonia/Epiros : Those are the worst to try. They may be technically efficient, but their "reform" requirement (or precisely the reforms requirement of Makedonia) screw things over : Makedonia must kill Pyrrhos (Epiros King) so those two factions are entengled because of that. When playing Epiros, Makedonian faction is always at war with you even if you start elswhere (Syrakuse for instance). I had a lot of fun playing Epiros "as something else" but my save game had a lot of glitches.
- Bosphore : must stick to black sea. Avoid.

[Frtigern]

The problem with KH is that they have less "free upkeep units" slots because they only rely on polis buildings for recruitment and have no "military colonies" buildings, so your hoplites (the "traditional" ones, those who are not elite) effectively cost more to maintain than for other factions.
KH can't create "polis" but they can upgrade even minor polis so if you take back the ancient colonies and any settlement where minor polis is present and upgrade it to a metroplis.
But if your goal is to "reconquer" magna graecia and every places where greek world has been influent, you have the best faction : they still have access to a fair roaster of hoplites after the thureos reforms, including the Chosen Hoplites elites.
All you have to do is to understand the prerequisits for KH political reform.

Concerning other factions :

- Pergamon : I used starting at Massalia, and they can build the highest gov building almost anywhere (within the "empire size limitations" of course). But you need to start the game by destroying everyone in western anatolia and take it over OR by fighting galatian rebels several times before starting your real campaign.
- Seleucids/Bactria : their zone of influence is only defined as "satrapy". Meaning that you risk having a lot of problems when you will reach western parts of the map.
- Ptolemaic kingdom : works well but has a "egyptian" feeling that may remove your hellenic patriotism for a more "universal" kind of kingdom.
- Makedonia/Epiros : Those are the worst to try. They may be technically efficient, but their "reform" requirement (or precisely the reforms requirement of Makedonia) screw things over : Makedonia must kill Pyrrhos (Epiros King) so those two factions are entengled because of that. When playing Epiros, Makedonian faction is always at war with you even if you start elswhere (Syrakuse for instance). I had a lot of fun playing Epiros "as something else" but my save game had a lot of glitches.
- Bosphore : must stick to black sea. Avoid.

So what I got out of this is that:
KH cannot create polis but can only upgrade minor polis to metropolis
Pergamon can build highest buildings but only after defeating the galatians
Seleucids and Bactria can't expand west because of satrapy? (can you elaborate more on this?)
Ptolemaic kingdom is also hellenic but do they also suffer same Seleucid and Bactrian disadvantages?
Makedonia/Epiros have reforms that screw things over which revolves around perpetual war with each other.
Bosphore can't expand out of there region

So I now understand KH's disadvantage in terms of buildings but you brought up an issue with the satraps which you say is exclusive to Seleucids and Bactria. I'm guessing Makedonia, Epirus and Ptolemaic kingdom are more dynasties rather than satraps so don't suffer the same effects? Is Pergamon a satrap or dynasty? In terms of what you said they don't suffer the same satrap effects of Seleucids and Bactria but do suffer from stagnation until you deal with the galatians, after which I'm guessing opens up new possibilities.

Sorry I haven't looked into depth of all the intricacies of the effects of how certain hellenic factions are affected when trying to conquer Magna Graecia.

[Kull]

You goal seems more reflective of KH, but the polis issue is unfortunate. However, there is a workaround. Conquer a non-polis city and give it to another Greek faction. Keep an eye on it, and after they build the polis you can take the city back. Not really gamey if you frame it as a substitute for a mechanism in which KH lays the groundwork for an independent colony to be created (i.e. conquers the province), has no direct political control over the new colony (another faction controls it first), and then you incorporate it into the wider world of KH free-states at a later point (re-conquest).

Edit: One caveat. Not all provinces can build a new polis right from scratch, as they need a level one market and Hellenic culture of 30 or above, and are not compatible with eastcols. So after you conquer the place, it would be a good idea to make sure those pre-reqs are in place, BEFORE gifting it.

[Floren d'Asteneuz]

So what I got out of this is that:
KH cannot create polis but can only upgrade minor polis to metropolis

True. Kull gave a good workaround.

Pergamon can build highest buildings but only after defeating the galatians

Either by defeating several batch of "rebels" galatians OR by conquering western part of Anatolia.
There is a failsafe though (I think) : if Seleucids have less than 7 provinces (worldwide) the reform triggers. You can provoque that using the console command "surrender_regions f_seleucids" : this will remove Seleucids from the map entirely. I use it for test only.
Pergamon is a good alternative to KH because they are one of the less "macedonians" of the hellenistic factions.

Seleucids and Bactria can't expand west because of satrapy? (can you elaborate more on this?)

"Satrapy" means "provinces" in persian.
The "Satrapy" regions are the former persian empire provinces that Alexander The Great conquered from Darius. It almost the whole eastern part of the map until western anatolia. It's northern boundaries are the steppes.

Seleucids cannot (I think) build the highest gov building outside those regions.
Bactria cannot either but have a special eastern expansion through India. But Bactria is limitted by a script that roleplay the creation of an independant kingdom by declaring war and independance to Seleukids.

Ptolemaic kingdom is also hellenic but do they also suffer same Seleucid and Bactrian disadvantages?

No, Ptolemaioi can build their highest gov level in any part of the hellenistic influence, and old colonies. Their problem is that they are teinted by their egyptian "flavour". The king is a "pharaoh" and when he is out of Alexandria, there is a script triggering revolts that spams you every turns.

Makedonia/Epiros have reforms that screw things over which revolves around perpetual war with each other.

I think it settle down when Pyrrhos dies (of old ages or otherwise) it settles down a little but I had a lot of crashes while playing Epiros outside of their intended parameters.

Bosphore can't expand out of there region

True. Black sea, western anatolia too I think.

Note : every factions can expand where they want, but with more or less difficulties. Highest gov level buildings are not buildable everywhere and limitted by the total amount of provinces you possess, except for Bosphore who can build the highest gov building in every provinces they have IF those provinces are around black sea or in western anatolia.

So I now understand KH's disadvantage in terms of buildings but you brought up an issue with the satraps which you say is exclusive to Seleucids and Bactria. I'm guessing Makedonia, Epirus and Ptolemaic kingdom are more dynasties rather than satraps so don't suffer the same effects? Is Pergamon a satrap or dynasty? In terms of what you said they don't suffer the same satrap effects of Seleucids and Bactria but do suffer from stagnation until you deal with the galatians, after which I'm guessing opens up new possibilities.

Pergamon is a "dynasty". First, it is the descendant of one of Alexander's generals. Then, when you beat the galatians (or conquer half anatolia) that "general" has legitimacy to claim himself "king of pergamon". Even though he is a descendant (of a cousin of a...) of one of Alexander's generals, he managed to be more "classical greek" than macedonian-like. He was (and his descendants) very close to Athens. The Stoa of Attalos of Athens bears the name of one of the kings of Pergamon. It was one of his gifts to Athens.

Sorry I haven't looked into depth of all the intricacies of the effects of how certain hellenic factions are affected when trying to conquer Magna Graecia.

I strongly suggest you check the help pdf file.

It is called "Player Guide 2.3.pdf" and can be found in your folder :

Medieval II Total War\mods\ebii

You have all the informations I gave you and more in that file.

[QuintusSertorius]

Also bear in mind that while KH can't build new polis' nor can they build colonies at all, their later governments give them some options. The Supervised Hellenic Admin is for places which don't have a polis, but give you an imitation polis pool.

[Hellenikon]

The AI doesn't have limitations on colonists to create/upgrade poleis, so you'll find that any settlement is hellenised much faster under the AI that if you controled it directly. So long as the AI has the spare money, of course.

[QuintusSertorius]

The AI gets a steep discount on construction - as long as a governor is present (because it's a trait given to AI named characters - no other way to do it). That's why it happens at all.