Why Pergamon doesnt have Agema Phalangitai?

[Jervaj]

Hello everyone!

Its been a long time I have been away, came back and was going to play with the new 2.3. Playing around with the recruitment viewer made me curious about the question on the title. I guess they arent a pure succesor state but neither is Epiro (though they were related to Alexender the Great) or Pontos that get them. Pontos isnt even that hellenestic.

Their natural area of influence gives them pretty good access to hellenic colonists. It tends to be relativelly easy with them to recruit phalangites compared to other sucessor states. Why couldnt they have units of the best men selected among the relativelly ample pòol they have?


Thanks in advance for the answer!

[MagusCaligula]

Yeah I find this odd too, I just added them to the roster when playing as Pergamon xD

[Roma_Victrix]

Yeah I find this odd too, I just added them to the roster when playing as Pergamon xD

That's funny, I did the same with Koinon Hellenon...

[Hellenikon]

Only the sucessor kingdoms of macedonian origin, or those who traced their legitimacy to them, used macedonian customs and institutions. Pergamon, despite being included in the generic "hellenistic" category, had a much more local greek outlook - their kings were much more like hegemons (maintaning the appearance of local freedoms) than macedonian kingship. There are no sources of Pergamon fielding a macedonian style agema phalanx, and the faction already has access to elite hoplites, to represent the closer relation to their free greek subjects.

[Jervaj]

Yeah I find this odd too, I just added them to the roster when playing as Pergamon xD

How do you do that if I may ask?

That's funny, I did the same with Koinon Hellenon...

Thats going too dar. HERESY! xD

Only the sucessor kingdoms of macedonian origin, or those who traced their legitimacy to them, used macedonian customs and institutions. Pergamon, despite being included in the generic "hellenistic" category, had a much more local greek outlook - their kings were much more like hegemons (maintaning the appearance of local freedoms) than macedonian kingship. There are no sources of Pergamon fielding a macedonian style agema phalanx, and the faction already has access to elite hoplites, to represent the closer relation to their free greek subjects.

I see. That does make sense that maybe they didnt had the macedonian tradition even if they had the capabilities and manpower. But, what elite hoplites? Havent seen them getting those.

[Hellenikon]

I see. That does make sense that maybe they didnt had the macedonian tradition even if they had the capabilities and manpower. But, what elite hoplites? Havent seen them getting those.

Yes, also greek and macedonians didn't exactly see eye to eye in this period, so using a macedonian agema doesn't make much sense for an anatolian greek that is looking to carve it's own dignity (the agema were more about status and politics, than about raw military power - their numbers were small). A similar thing happened in Bactria, with macedonians being sidelined in favour of greeks.
The hoplites i was refering to are epilektoi hoplitai.

[Jervaj]

Yes, also greek and macedonians didn't exactly see eye to eye in this period, so using a macedonian agema doesn't make much sense for an anatolian greek that is looking to carve it's own dignity (the agema were more about status and politics, than about raw military power - their numbers were small). A similar thing happened in Bactria, with macedonians being sidelined in favour of greeks.
The hoplites i was refering to are epilektoi hoplitai.

Yeah I know the elite hoplite unit. What I didnt know is that they could get it. They didnt used to last I recall. How and where?

[athanaric]

Yeah I know the elite hoplite unit. What I didnt know is that they could get it. They didnt used to last I recall. How and where?

To get Epilektoi Hoplitai, you probably need a Hellenistic metropolis (which Pergamon is by default, but most nearby provinces don't have them). You might also need a certain type of government.

[Roma_Victrix]

Only the sucessor kingdoms of macedonian origin, or those who traced their legitimacy to them, used macedonian customs and institutions. Pergamon, despite being included in the generic "hellenistic" category, had a much more local greek outlook - their kings were much more like hegemons (maintaning the appearance of local freedoms) than macedonian kingship. There are no sources of Pergamon fielding a macedonian style agema phalanx, and the faction already has access to elite hoplites, to represent the closer relation to their free greek subjects.

Yeah, but you haven't taken into account that the Agema Phalangitai look really, really good and hence I should have them whenever I want them.

I see. That does make sense that maybe they didnt had the macedonian tradition even if they had the capabilities and manpower. But, what elite hoplites? Havent seen them getting those.

He's talking about the Hyperaspistai, I think. They are recruited in western Anatolia, alongside the Peltastai Logades.

[Jervaj]

Yeah, but you haven't taken into account that the Agema Phalangitai look really, really good and hence I should have them whenever I want them.



He's talking about the Hyperaspistai, I think. They are recruited in western Anatolia, alongside the Peltastai Logades.

Ah yeah. Those I know. Though they arent hoplites but swordsmen. Kind of your replacement of Hyspapistai on the successors though they have somewhat different roles.

Would you be so kind to tell me the easy way to add a existing unit to a faction by the way? Seems you are used to it jeje

[QuintusSertorius]

To answer the original question, we reviewed Pergamon's factional recruitment recently and revised what's in the Dynastike Khora. Some of the important points from the historians were these:

Pergamon is pretty difficult to compare to other Hellenistic powers imo: they don't really have the manpower to field a vast number of units, native from their core territory, unlike say a Makedonia always having Phalangitai. Pergamon also expanding faced these difficulties and the solution was to delegate as much power as possible, while keeping bureaucratic oversight.

Overall the Pergamene pools ought to be rather different from other Hellenistic factions, in fact they would be more similar to Pontic ones. Difference being that instead of Eastern and purely Anatolian units, Pergamon would have Hellenised Anatolian and Galatian.

I want to echo what Arjos said earlier, Pergamon just works differently from the other states. There isn't a large Macedonian body to recruit from and the state isn't really attempting to be a Macedonia in Asia Minor.

Pergamon is very much a Greek power in Asia, not another Makedonian royal wannabe (like Epeiros). Their "elites" are Galatians and Anatolians, not the regular Successor set of Makedonian-styled royal guards.

[Jervaj]

To answer the original question, we reviewed Pergamon's factional recruitment recently and revised what's in the Dynastike Khora. Some of the important points from the historians were these:







Pergamon is very much a Greek power in Asia, not another Makedonian royal wannabe (like Epeiros). Their "elites" are Galatians and Anatolians, not the regular Successor set of Makedonian-styled royal guards.

Thanks for the detailed insight. It actually help made much more sense of their lineup and made it feel a lot more complete and made it more itneresting on its own way. Thank you!