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Thread: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 09.08.19)

  1. #161

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by ScipioTheGreat View Post
    I don’t think the hardcore without aggression works with this mod unfortunately.
    I wouldn’t use both, I really enjoy the hardcore mod but was curious to see how it compared to this mod as this seems to be more of an economic impact mod. Hardcore mod minus the hits to diplomacy is my ideal scenario which I think this mod could offer, but would definitely be covered by hardcore with no CAI mentioned above.

    The random factions that are no where near me declaring war and no one wanting to make agreements are the only short falls of the hardcore mod to me. The rest of the changes I love and seems this mod is of similar nature in the results of gameplay so I’m interested in any combination that makes conquering territory tough but allows for reasonable diplomacy.


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  2. #162
    ScipioTheGreat's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    I’m trying out the ‘12 tpy slower campaign mod’, since KAM recently informed me there might be some complications with the standard hardcore one. To be fair, I did have some weird gameplay mechanical interactions throughout my last campaign - and I wouldn’t be opposed to finally having the ability to engage in diplomacy, without having to use the imperium mod that eliminates the expansionism penalty that is...

    Either way, I just can’t see myself playing DEI with original build and research times. Hopefully the mod works cooperates well with this economy overhaul because the two concepts combined are every veteran players dream.

  3. #163

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Day 2:
    I destroyed the hell out of Athenians. Now Sparta and Athens are under my control, that war against Athens cost me 90% of my army but they are in the Hades now. One thing is for sure, given the situation I described, if you are going to go war against someone...RUSH them. How? the poor economy and my desperation for seeing AI rising again another army without problems made me hire 1 merc unit instead of waiting another turn for recruiting just 1 unit (as much as my economy could handle, while I saw their only general recruiting 3 unit for the next turn...) and attack on the same turn.
    Let's remember AI also is not as much affected as you in terms of replenishment/PoP system.

  4. #164
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by ScipioTheGreat View Post
    I don’t think the hardcore without aggression works with this mod unfortunately.
    Why do you think that ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardri View Post
    I had no idea! Where is it on Steam?

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    You could find them on the Forums in the same thread as Hardcore.

  5. #165

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greek strategos View Post
    Why do you think that ?


    You could find them on the Forums in the same thread as Hardcore.
    I'll grab that this evening, thanks

  6. #166
    ♔Greek Strategos♔'s Avatar THE BEARDED MACE
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardri View Post
    I'll grab that this evening, thanks
    Anytime.

  7. #167

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Greek strategos View Post
    Why do you think that ?


    You could find them on the Forums in the same thread as Hardcore.
    I tried using HC submod + Alt Econ and had issues. The HC sub mod has its own building times and costs. When I tried using them combined the buildings were the HC version and thus much cheaper/less profitable than with Alt Econ. Does the load order matter? I know diddly about mods and how they function.

  8. #168
    ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Satansblofish View Post
    I tried using HC submod + Alt Econ and had issues. The HC sub mod has its own building times and costs. When I tried using them combined the buildings were the HC version and thus much cheaper/less profitable than with Alt Econ. Does the load order matter? I know diddly about mods and how they function.
    It does. In theory, the mod that you load as the last overwrites the previous ones, though from my own experience I know that this isn't always the case and it is also up to the table naming conventions in each mod how they will function together.

    You may try to place AE at the end of the loading order and see if it overwrites HC and how these two work together then. Though, apart from the sheer compatibility issue, you may also encounter other game balance related problems.
    Last edited by ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~; April 26, 2018 at 07:50 AM.

  9. #169

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by seleukos99 View Post
    It does. In theory, the mod that you load as the last overwrites the previous ones, though from my own experience I know that this isn't always the case and it is also up to the table naming conventions in each mod how they will function together.

    You may try to place AE at the end of the loading order and see if it overwrites HC and how these two work together then. Though, apart from the sheer compatibility issue, you may also encounter other game balance related problems.
    I will try that. The goal would be to keep the HC submod diplomacy changes while switching over to AE for their economic changes.

  10. #170

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Falco View Post
    One of the things I love about this mod is that the AI can't replace their defeated armies as fast as vanilla DEI, but I do agree with Tene, I think they can replace them a bit too fast currently.
    have to agree with this. just lost a great, hard-fought campaign as Hayastan and it seems that smaller factions can replace their stack a bit too fast. they kept on trowing full stacks at me (on H campaign, N battles) couple of turns after i defeated one. destroying 3-4 stacks root and branch seems to have very limited effect and battle could sometimes feel somewhat meaningless.

    that said, it is a fantastic submod! a massive improvement over vanilla and makes every unit and every building initiative count! forces player to think twice before making a move. cannot go back to vanilla after trying it. it introduces somewhat of a DLV and EB feel to the DeI.

    hope you'd keep fine-tuning and updating it. thanks a lot.

  11. #171
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    That is probably due to hard difficulty. Also if AI was able to acumulate gold, it would have enough money to replenish own stacks. Plus I think recruitment points are different on higher difficulty. Sadly I just don't have time in last couple of weeks to work on it. Hopefully my free time will improve after next week.
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  12. #172
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    I think that hard difficulty might indeed be the reason for this as I haven't really experienced the same problem in my campaign that I play with Pergamon on n/n difficulty.

    Quite the opposite, I've observed thus far that the AI factions, and especially those small ones, often have just one chance to make it and should they loose their entire army they find it usually hard to rebuild and get conqured quite easily.

    That's pretty much how it was in my campaign with Galatians, Odrysians, Bithynians, Carians and other Thracian factions.

    The only faction that stands out here were the Rhodians that somehow managed on a few occasions to emerge from the ashes till I finally put them down. But that's perhaps due to high economical bonuses they have in their base.
    Last edited by ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~; April 27, 2018 at 06:33 AM.

  13. #173

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Well then it could be said that the mod in terms of AI replenishment is optimized for Hard difficulty. I think KAM wants it to be on Normal, wich makes more sense, so the higher you go the easier for the AI and not the otehr way around.

    For now, I'm still playing with the submod after defeating Athenians, now the gyant is Rome, the time has come and better to attack them now that they have multiple enemies.

    Positive thing that I extremely love about this submod? you have to manage the taxes literally like every turn/2 turns, either because sometimes you need money or you need more PO. Lovely.

  14. #174
    ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~'s Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    Well then it could be said that the mod in terms of AI replenishment is optimized for Hard difficulty. I think KAM wants it to be on Normal, wich makes more sense, so the higher you go the easier for the AI and not the otehr way around.
    But why, actually? Talking about replenishment, that's.

    Due to high costs of unit recruitment I've relied heavily on the replenishement and can't really complain about any serious discrepencies in that respect. It could be a bit tough from the start but once your generals acquire the necessary skill and you sacrifice some PO in favour of replenishing your armies inside the cities, then it goes actually quite smooth. That adds IMO some extra stategic dimension to the game as you need to manage your PO more dynamically because of that. Provided that the population shortages do not stand in the way, I'm now able to replenish my whole army within 3-4 turns, which is fair enough, I reckon.

    I do agree with what you've said about that tax management. I also have this impression that now it's become more dynamic than it previously was.

    The only thing that now comes to my mind that I think really needs some adjustments, are the costs of all the political actions that at the moment are badly of out synch with the current scale of the economy.
    Last edited by ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~; April 27, 2018 at 07:58 AM.

  15. #175

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    I meant the AI replenishment and (due to low costs and upkeep) ability of recruiting x3 faster than you. It happened to me during the first 20 turns me being Macedon vs Athens. Take in mind, Macedon should also has more money than Athens wich, by this time period, was not that important as Macedon. Of course Macedon wasn't at it's golden age (Phillip and Alexander) but still, pretty much wealthier than Athenians 100% sure.

  16. #176
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tenerife_Boy View Post
    I meant the AI replenishment and (due to low costs and upkeep) ability of recruiting x3 faster than you. It happened to me during the first 20 turns me being Macedon vs Athens. Take in mind, Macedon should also has more money than Athens wich, by this time period, was not that important as Macedon. Of course Macedon wasn't at it's golden age (Phillip and Alexander) but still, pretty much wealthier than Athenians 100% sure.
    I see. And what is your campaign difficulty? Hard, I suppose. Do you get the same results while playing on normal?

  17. #177

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Normal. I always play on Normal/Normal, because cheating AI is not a real way of challenge for me(it's the only we have due to the engine but that's it, AI is not smarter the higher you go, no smart in battles neither in economy building) and the mods are also worked on the Normal tables so the higher dificulties the more bonuses AI have.

  18. #178
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    Keep in mind that even after I will revist some stuff AI will ALWAYS have lower upkeep and will have hidden income. Upkeep has to be lower as some factions start with armies that take away most of their income, so they can't develop as AI is unable to disband troops plus certain 1 region factions have very small base income of around 1500 so they would not be able to field anything with full upkeep. Last part is also the reason why there is a hidden income, so that 1 region factions are able to do anything. Other reason for hidden income is that game is broken if you take it out fully, which we tried in the past. It broke something with AI or even crashed the game, can't remember now.
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  19. #179
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    @Tenerife_Boy

    Regarding the problem you are describing, is this something you notice from the very start of your game?

    That's actually quite surprising to me as I haven't really noticed that the AI is overwhelmingly more capable of recruiting more units than I am.

    For the first 50 turns or so, I can't really remember seeing stacks larger than 13-16 units. As for one-settlement factions, it would normally be one single stack that they are able to recruit. Once they lose that stack they may indeed be able to replenish their army by recruiting 2-3 units per turn, and if they wouldn't be able to do so their very chance of survival would be seriously diminished, I guess...

  20. #180

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 04.07.18)

    I don't mean to remove KAM but lower a bit the hidden income OR balance a bit the upkeep/hiring costs with the players. For example, if a unit upkeep for me is 160 AI can't have it at 60 it's too much unbalance for the same unit being in Normal dificulty., go for 100 for AI, or at least 90. Take in mind any of the mechanics affect soo much to AI and punish players a lot= Pop system, supplies, etc etc.

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