[Submod] Alternative Economy (Updated 09.08.19)

[KAM 2150]

Which is...? ; P Such vague statement does not tell me anything.

[AncientMind]

Ok so after playing as Rome for 15 turns i was obliterated by Epirus... I had trouble getting the coin to get a nice full-ish stack army while Eprius came at me with 2 full stack armies wielding 9 units of Chalkaspides, 1 unit of Elephants, 5 units of hoplites... Doesn't that seem a little too overpowered for Epirus given the territory and economy they must have had? I enjoy the premise of the mod BUT for the time being it's a little too much for me to be honest...

[CIaagent11]

To sum things up what this submod changes:
-unit recruitment cost increased around 5 times, using custom mathematical sequence, which means that despite same formula, cheap unit cost did not increased as much as expensive unit cost)
-unit upkeep is 1/7 of the recruitment cost
-costs and upkeep of mercenaries overhauled, they now cost 25% more than regular unit of same type in terms of recruitment but only around 15% more compared to regular units in terms of upkeep (which means mercenaries are not to be cheaply hired for one battle and disbanded but can be actually pretty useful to have in the long run)
-income from trade increased
-building cost increased 6 times
-building income increased 4.5 times

Looking very good! These are precisely the kinds of changes I always tried to make in my personal moddings, although sloppily.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Looking very good! These are precisely the kinds of changes I always tried to make in my personal moddings, although sloppily.

Well well. Good to have you back buddy.

[AncientMind]

Well i would alter my previous statement. I re-started Rome and i was surprised. The starting economic difficulty is there BUT as the turns progressed im up to 20.000 income per turn with 60.000 saved up wielding a full stack fleet full of melee ships and a full stack republican army with late principes... I'm guessing there was something wrong with the game that sorted it self out, and i have to say im really enjoying my time building the Roman Republic ! Keep up the great work

[Dardo21]

Well i would alter my previous statement. I re-started Rome and i was surprised. The starting economic difficulty is there BUT as the turns progressed im up to 20.000 income per turn with 60.000 saved up wielding a full stack fleet full of melee ships and a full stack republican army with late principes... I'm guessing there was something wrong with the game that sorted it self out, and i have to say im really enjoying my time building the Roman Republic ! Keep up the great work

Epirus starts with a large army but actually bleeds money at the start I believe, so yeah it's handy if you can quickly take new territories but detrimental if you can't.

[Bubbl3Gum]

Plus

[Dresden]

Just a note - in base DeI the AI gets a bonus to building income based on difficulty level. Its in the campaign difficulty tables (building gdp mod all). While in normal DeI its only partially noticeable, if you increase the building income by a large factor its probably a huge bonus for the AI.

[JCB206]

Apologies if I came off harshly then. My main complaint was not that they got the army spawns, but that it appeared to be a blatant AI cheat with no penalties. Ideally the script would have various economic and population downsides for Rome, much like large-scale levies have historically resulted in. Rome had a lot of private donations to the treasury to be able to fund the armies so there should be a lot of Senatorial issues, as historically happened, and levying the various Italic allies and the various groups that made up the volones should create PO issues. Freeing large numbers of slaves and prisoners for army purposes has its downsides after all, and while Hannibal was marauding in Italy many of the Socii switched sides for one reason or another. While the Republic did manage to battle back and recover and win, it was also a period of incredible instability on the peninsula.

Rome needs lots of help to be a dominating power. Their biggest advantage, IMO, based on historical sources, was the cost and experience of their units.

Hellenic forces trained periodically (hoplites, thueros spearmen, bronze shield pikemen, etc.) but the Romans had 40,000 men under arms EVERY year. Training, marching, building, fighting (sometimes), ya know, normal standing army stuff. Only they weren't a standing army, they were a levy, which is what legio means. They are the only culture during this time frame that had to make a law, saying that infantry couldn't (shouldn't) serve more that 16 years total. So practically any man worth his salt, served many years in the army and didn't just merely serve in the militia every few years for a couple of months.

What did this very large (in the Hellenic states) standing ar...um...militia cost? 1/3 - 1/4 the cost of every man serving in the Ptolemic, Seleucid, Carthaginian, Macedonian, etc. armies. The standard man in these armies was paid 6 obols and 2 obols for food. The Romans paid 2 obols per day and made the soldiers buy their own food and equipment. 2 obols was what militias were paid for a short campaigns in Greece. Roma was a very militaristic society that somehow convinced their middle class to serve for almost nothing. Roma was built on these men.

[JCB206]

Yeah, the AI only looks at its income not at its total cash for some reason. So, if it has low income and 100000000 in the bank, it won't recruit or build properly.

I have heard you say this before. There must be a way to change this. Either make it spend every penny, which is a bad way but maybe easier or see its money. I have to believe that CA set the AI to save some money, like spend half, but there must be a way? I guess the biggest thing is if you found a way, how would you know if it is working?

[KAM 2150]

If I will have time today, I will make few adjustements to diplomacy values and taxes. I will leave old version too

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

Just a note - in base DeI the AI gets a bonus to building income based on difficulty level. Its in the campaign difficulty tables (building gdp mod all). While in normal DeI its only partially noticeable, if you increase the building income by a large factor its probably a huge bonus for the AI.

Would it be possible to decrease these values for the income bonus that AI gets depending on the difficuly level, to bridge that gap somehow?

I'm really curious about this submod and as I'm about to start a new campaign tonight I'm definitely going to try it.

Selecting the normal difficulty level for the campaign would probably be the wisest choice in light of what Dresden said?

[TheNewKing]

i edited your mod and deleted all changes apart from unit changes and works very well. Could you do this submod version for just changes to unit prices.
Great mod this thanks for your time and work

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Would it be possible to decrease these values for the income bonus that AI gets depending on the difficuly level, to bridge that gap somehow?

I'm really curious about this submod and as I'm about to start a new campaign tonight I'm definitely going to try it.

Selecting the normal difficulty level for the campaign would probably be the wisest choice in light of what Dresden said?

I would suggest N/N and maybe hardcore mod (not sure how it plays with it yet). For starters and see how it goes from there.

[~Seleukos.I.Nikator~]

I would suggest N/N and maybe hardcore mod (not sure how it plays with it yet). For starters and see how it goes from there.

Thank you for the answer, Strategos. I've actually started a campaign on n/h with the Pergamon and I paired up the mod with De AI Arbitriis and Cultural Tensio.

I've played the first couple of turns thus far. For now it is a quite challenging game of some very fine margins. To find the right balance between the military and infrastructure spending, public order and growth is not easy, though it seems to be doable, at least for now.

Thus far I had to definitely limit myself, especially in terms of military recruitment, but so did the AI factions. The Carians, my primary target, are not developing fast, either, and their recruitment capability seems to be restricted in comparison to standard DeI.

I'll give more constructive feedback once I proceed further.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Thank you for the answer, Strategos. I've actually started a campaign on n/h with the Pergamon and I paired up the mod with De AI Arbitriis and Cultural Tensio.

I've played the first couple of turns thus far. For now it is a quite challenging game of some very fine margins. To find the right balance between the military and infrastructure spending, public order and growth is not easy, though it seems to be doable, at least for now.

Thus far I had to definitely limit myself, especially in terms of military recruitment, but so did the AI factions. The Carians, my primary target, are not developing fast, either, and their recruitment capability seems to be restricted in comparison to standard DeI.

I'll give more constructive feedback once I proceed further.

Sure. For my previous campaigns I used VH/N Hardcore, CT and DAIA with 12tpy. Haven't actually played a new one yet. I'm not sure how they will play with KAM's submod (CT and DAIA).

[KAM 2150]

I got again a bit overwhelmed by tax related stuff so I need to postpone the update for tomorrow (hopefully)

Here is a rough draft of what will be added:
-changed diplomacy "wealth" thresholds since they are based on income per turn
-lower money from taxes so player will be more inclined to develop cities further (So for example it would be better to have 2-3 developed cities than conquer 5 poor cities)
-rework some of the AI money bonuses, mainly for higher difficulty levels (mostly lower their tax bonus and if possible reduce building price so AI will gain income from developing cities)
-add Steam version

Additional info:
-Link to current version will be left for those who prefer it
-Add a version with only unit cost changes as per TheNewKing request as that takes only few seconds of work.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

How it will play with our Hardcore mod though ?

[KAM 2150]

No idea, never used it ;P

[ScipioTheGreat]

I’ll try it out with hardcore whenever you get some free time to update it. I’m assuming the upkeep and recruitment changes are applied to ships as well? And does this mean we’ll be seeing more mercenaries in AI armies, like Carthage for instance KAM?