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Thread: [Submod] Alternative Battles

  1. #21
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
    Artifex

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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Code:
    <?xml version="1.0"?>
    <root>
       <recruitment>
          <recruitment_slots uint="1"/>
          <retraining_slots uint="0.9"/>
          <deplenish_pools_with_caps bool="false"/>
          <clear_pools_with_caps bool="false"/>
          <add_initial_with_caps bool="true"/>
          <add_disband_no_caps bool="true"/>
          <force_clamp_to_max bool="false"/>
          <deplenish_multiplier float="0.9"/>
          <deplenish_offset float="-0.2"/>
          <percentage_pool_reduction_lost uint="25"/>
          <percentage_pool_reduction_occupy uint="25"/>
          <percentage_pool_reduction_sack uint="75"/>
          <percentage_pool_reduction_exterminate uint="100"/>
          <max_agents_per_turn uint="1"/>
       </recruitment>
       <religion>
          <max_witches_per_region uint="0"/>
          <max_witches uint="0"/>
          <max_heretics_per_region uint="0"/>
          <max_heretics uint="0"/>
          <max_heretics_conversion_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <max_inquisitors_per_region uint="0"/>
          <max_inquisitors uint="0"/>
          <heretic_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0000"/>
          <heretic_conversion_rate_offset float="0.000"/>
          <witch_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <witch_conversion_rate_offset float="0.00"/>
          <inquisitor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.000"/>
          <inquisitor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.00"/>
          <priest_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.000"/>
          <priest_conversion_rate_offset float="0.000"/>
          <witch_creation_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <heretic_creation_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <inquisitor_creation_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <min_cardinal_piety uint="0"/>
          <convert_to_heretic_base_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <convert_to_heretic_unorthodox_modifier float="0.0"/>
          <inquisitor_turn_start uint="0"/>
          <inquisitor_target_crusades bool="false"/>
    	  <founding_conversion_default_rate float="0.0002"/>
          <neighbour_normalise_weight float="0.00015"/>
          <governor_conversion_rate_offset float="0.0004"/>
          <governor_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.0004"/>
          <spy_conversion_rate_offset float="0.000"/>
          <spy_conversion_rate_modifier float="0.000"/>
          <owner_conversion_default_rate float="0.0002"/>
          <spy_conversion_rate_foreign_modifier float="0.0"/>
       </religion>
       <bribery>
          <bribe_to_family_tree bool="false"/>
          <base_character_chance float="0.4"/>
          <religion_modifier float="0.66"/>
          <combined_attribute_modifier float="0.2"/>
          <briber_attribute_divisor float="3.0"/>
          <bribee_attribute_divisor float="3.0"/>
          <army_size_modifier float="0.035"/>
          <base_settlement_chance float="0.8"/>
          <settlement_loyalty_modifier float="0.01"/>
          <settlement_population_modifier float="0.0001"/>
          <faction_standing_divisor float="10.0"/>
          <max_bribe_chance float="100.0"/>
          <min_bribe_chance float="1.0"/>
          <bribe_chance_modifier float="1.0"/>
       </bribery>
       <family_tree>
          <max_age uint="95"/>
          <max_age_for_marriage_for_male uint="50"/>
          <max_age_for_marriage_for_female uint="40"/>
          <max_age_before_death uint="105"/>
          <max_age_of_child uint="10"/>
          <old_age uint="71"/>
          <age_of_manhood uint = "16"/>
          <daughters_age_of_consent uint = "14"/>
          <daughters_retirement_age uint = "40"/>
          <age_difference_min int = "7"/>
          <age_difference_max int = "15"/>
          <parent_to_child_min_age_diff uint = "12"/>
          <min_adoption_age uint = "16"/>
          <max_adoption_age uint = "40"/>
          <max_age_for_conception uint = "40"/>
          <age_of_manhood_close uint = "14"/>
          <max_number_of_children uint = "4"/>
       </family_tree>
       <diplomacy>
          <max_diplomacy_items uint="8"/>
          <enemies_reject_gifts bool="false"/>
          <use_balance_owed bool="false"/>
       </diplomacy>
       <missions>
          <null_mission_score float="25.0"/>
       </missions>
       <display>
          <character_selection_radius float="0.3"/>
          <character_selection_height float="1.3"/>
          <character_selection_height_crouching float="1.0"/>
          <diplomacy_scroll_height uint="768"/>
          <recruitment_sort_simple bool="false"/>
          <faction_standing_min float="-1.0"/>
          <faction_standing_max float="1.0"/>
          <use_orig_rebel_faction_models bool="true"/>
          <keep_original_heretic_portraits bool="false"/>
          <alt_sett_order_colours bool="false"/>
          <show_slave_religion bool="false"/>			<!-- Hide slave religion from enemy settlement scrolls. Use remapped faction for slaves own settlement details scroll. -->
          <enable_radar_zoom bool="true"/>
          <hud_tab_text_vert_offset uint="18"/>			<!-- vertical text offset for campaign hud tabs -->
          <show_building_browser_castles bool="true"/>		<!-- are castles shown in the building browser -->
          <separate_games_races bool="true"/>			<!-- use separate games and races settlement icons -->
          <standard_soldier_limit uint="1000"/>			<!-- Used to specify range for amry standards (banners) -->
          <standard_soldier_level_scale uint="50"/>			<!-- Used to scale army size display compared to standard range specified above -->
          <clear_battle_models_on_new_faction bool="false"/> <!-- Are unique battle models cleared when a character changes factions -->
          <chivalry_display_threshold int="1"/>			<!-- What level of chivalry a character needs to have 'chivalry' displayed instead of 'dread' -->
       </display>
       <ransom>
          <captor_release_chance_base float="50.0"/>
          <captor_release_chance_chiv_mod float="1.0"/>
          <captor_ransom_chance_base float="60.0"/>
          <captor_ransom_chance_chiv_mod float="1.0"/>
          <captor_ransom_chance_tm_mod float="10.0"/>
          <captive_ransom_chance_base float="40.0"/>
          <captive_ransom_chance_chiv_mod float="1.0"/>
          <captive_ransom_chance_tm_mod float="-10.0"/>
          <captive_ransom_chance_msm_mod float="10.0"/>
          <captive_ransom_for_slave bool="false"/>
       </ransom>
       <autoresolve>
         <min_capture_percent float = "5.0"/>
         <max_capture_percent float = "35.0"/>
         <lopsided_thresh float = "1.5"/>
         <lopsided_hn_mod float = "2.0"/>
         <separation_missile_add uint = "1"/>
         <naval_sink_modifier float = "5.0"/>
         <naval_sink_offset float = "2.5"/>
         <naval_sink_max float = "80.0"/>
         <sally_att_def_draw_divisor float = "1.25"/><!--sally battles are a draw if attacker lost and (number of attacker troops) > (number of defender troops)/divisor -->
         <use_new_sett_autoresolve bool = "false"/><!--do we use the new settlement autoresolve -->
         <switchable_defence_exposed bool = "false"/><!--can unit switch exposed state during autoresolve -->
         <gate_defence_num_oil_attacks int = "0"/><!--number of gate oil attacks -->
         <gate_defence_strength_oil_base float = "0.0"/><!--gate oil attack strength -->
         <gate_defence_strength_oil_level_modifier float = "0.0"/><!--gate oil attack strength += modifier * oil_level -->
         <gate_defence_num_arrow_attacks int = "0"/><!--number of gate arrow attacks -->
         <gate_defence_strength_arrow_base float = "0.0"/><!--gate arrow attack strength -->
         <gate_defence_strength_arrow_level_modifier float = "0.0"/><!--gate arrow attack strength += modifier * arrow_level -->
         <gate_defence_num_default_attacks int = "0"/><!--number of gate generic advantage attacks -->
         <gate_defence_strength_default_base float = "0.0"/><!--gate generic advantage attack strength -->
         <gate_defence_strength_default_level_modifier float = "0.0"/><!--gate advantage attack strength += modifier * fortification_level -->
         <sett_defence_num_arrow_attacks int = "0"/><!--number of settlement arrow attacks -->
         <sett_defence_strength_arrow_base float = "0.0"/><!--settlement arrow attack strength -->
         <sett_defence_strength_arrow_level_modifier float = "0.0"/><!--sett arrow attack strength += modifier * arrow_level -->
         <sett_defence_num_default_attacks int = "0"/><!--number of sett generic advantage attacks -->
         <sett_defence_strength_default_base float = "0.0"/><!--sett generic advantage attack strength -->
         <sett_defence_strength_default_level_modifier float = "0.0"/><!--sett advantage attack strength += modifier * fortification_level -->
    	 <display_strength_oil float = "0"/><!--additional effective army strength for defending residence with oil -->
         <display_strength_arrow float = "1"/><!--additional effective army strength for defending residence with arrows -->
    	 <display_strength_default float = "1"/><!--additional effective army strength for defending residence with fortification levels -->   
    	</autoresolve>
        <settlement>
          <!--Minimum garrison test  AI only-->
          <num_units_sett_garrison_base int = "3"/>
          <num_units_sett_garrison_level_modifier int = "3"/>
    	  <!--Minimum army test AI only-->
    	  <num_units_sett_army_base int = "18"/>
          <num_units_sett_army_level_modifier int = "18"/>
    	  <sett_num_units_army_base uint = "18"/>
          <num_units_army_level_modifier uint = "18"/>  
    	  <num_units_army uint = "18"/>
    	  <num_units_army uint = "18"/>
    	  <min_num_units_army uint = "18"/>
    	  <min_num_units_army uint = "18"/>
    	  <standard_soldier_limit uint = "18"/>
    	  <min_army_percent float = "90"/>
    	  <army_percent float = "100"/>
    	  <min_num_units uint = "18"/>
    	  <min_units uint = "18"/>
    <!-- <min_garrison_percentage float = "50.0"/>-->
          <sack_money_modifier float = "0.4"/>
          <exterminate_money_modifier float = "0.5"/>
          <chiv_spf_modifier float = "0.0"/>
          <chiv_sof_modifier float = "0.0"/>
          <dread_sof_modifier float = "0.0"/>
          <piety_cor_sif_modifier float = "0.0"/>
          <piety_admin_sif_modifier float = "0.0"/>
          <port_to_port_mp_min float = "0.0"/>
          <port_to_port_mp_max float = "2500.0"/>
          <heresy_unrest_modifier float = "30.0"/>
          <religion_unrest_modifier float = "20.0"/>
          <siege_gear_required_for_city_level string = "huge_city"/>
          <siege_gear_required_for_castle_level string = "moat_and_bailey"/>
          <no_towers_only_for_city_level string = "huge_city"/>
          <no_towers_only_for_castle_level string = "moat_and_bailey"/>
          <min_turn_keep_rebel_garrison int = "1"/>
          <max_turn_keep_rebel_garrison int = "999"/>
          <destroy_empty_forts bool = "false"/>
          <can_build_forts bool="false"/>
          <games_races_cost_modifier float = "0.25"/><!--games and races cost modifier -->
          <alternative_religious_unrest bool = "true"/><!--alternative settlement religious unrest calculations -->
          <alt_rel_allied_modifier float = "0.5"/><!--allied religion cumulative total modifier -->
          <alt_rel_gov_modifier_base float = "1.25"/><!--governors piety religion base modifier -->
          <alt_rel_gov_coefficient float = "-0.2"/><!--governors piety religion coefficient -->
        </settlement>
        <revolt>
            <end_turn_modifier float = "2"/>
            <excommunicated_modifier float = "15"/>
            <new_leader_modifier float = "5"/>
            <max_effective_loyalty float = "10.0"/>
            <rebel_region_modifier float = "2.0"/>
            <shadow_region_modifier float = "0.0"/>
            <rebel_border_modifier float = "1.1"/>
            <shadow_border_modifier float = "1.0"/>
            <num_units_modifier float = "1.0"/>
            <captain_modifier float = "0.01"/><!--chance of captain-led stacks revolting -->
            <min_revolt_chance float = "0.0"/>
            <max_revolt_chance float = "50.0"/>
            <ai_revolt_modifier float = "0.25"/><!--the proportion of the penalties in this section are applied to AI factions -->
            <revolt_additional_armies bool = "false"/>
            <revolt_crusading_armies bool = "false"/>
        </revolt>
       <characters>
          <agents_can_hide bool="false"/>
       </characters>
    <hordes>
        <end_target_faction_bonus int="-300"/>
        <start_target_faction_bonus int="-500"/>
        <farming_level_bonus int="-50"/>
        <shared_target_bonus int="-1000"/>
        <disbanding_horde_bonus int="-500"/>
        <starting_region_bonus int="300"/>
        <horde_target_resource_bonus int="1000"/>
    </hordes>
       <merchants>
          <base_income_modifier float="0.7"/>
          <trade_bonus_offset float="10.0"/>
       </merchants>
       <agents>
          <denounce_inquisitor_base_chance float="35.0"/>
          <denounce_priest_base_chance float="33.0"/>
          <denounce_attack_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <denounce_defence_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <denounce_chance_min int="5"/>
          <denounce_chance_max int="95"/>
          <denounce_heretic_attemp_modifier float="1.5"/>
          <denounce_character_attemp_modifier float="0.5"/>
          <assassinate_base_chance float="12.5"/>
          <assassinate_attack_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <assassinate_defence_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <assassinate_public_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <assassinate_personal_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <assassinate_counter_spy_modifier float="1.0"/>
          <assassinate_agent_modifier float="2.0"/>
          <assassinate_own_region_modifier float="2.0"/>
          <assassinate_assassinate_attr_modifier float="0.33"/>
          <assassinate_chance_min int="1"/>
          <assassinate_chance_max int="75"/>
          <acquisition_base_chance float="40.0"/>
          <acquisition_level_modifier float="5.0"/>
          <acquisition_attack_trade_rights_modifier float="1.3"/>
          <acquisition_defence_trade_rights_modifier float="0.7"/>
          <acquisition_chance_min int="5"/>
          <acquisition_chance_max int="95"/>
          <inquisitor_crt_heresy_divisor float="1.0"/>
          <inquisitor_crt_pfp_modifier float="0.5"/>
          <inquisitor_crt_pfp_modifier_min float="0.0"/>
          <inquisitor_crt_pfp_modifier_max float="1.0"/>
          <inquisitor_crt_chance_min float="0.0"/>
          <inquisitor_crt_chance_max float="0.1"/>
          <inquisitor_target_leaders bool="false"/>
          <inquisitor_target_heirs bool="false"/>
          <spy_base_chance float="25.0"/>                  <!-- base spying chance -->
          <spy_level_modifier float="0.1"/>                <!-- modifies the amount the subterfuge rating of a spy affects chance of success -->
          <not_spy_level_modifier float="0.5"/>            <!-- modifies the chance of success if spying object not a spy -->
          <spy_public_modifier float="1.0"/>               <!-- inversely modifies the amount the public security aspects of the target affects chance of success -->
          <spy_counter_spy_modifier float="1.0"/>          <!-- inversely modifies the amount the combined subterfuge rating with the target affects chance of success -->
          <spy_distance_modifier float="1.0"/>             <!-- inversely modifies the amount the distance in movement points from the target affects chance of success -->
          <spy_secret_agent_target_modifier float="0.5"/>  <!-- modifies the chance of success if an assassin or spy is travelling with a target army -->
          <spy_sedentary_turns_modifier float="0.2"/>      <!-- modifies the amount of turns a target has been stationary affects chance of success -->
          <spy_alliance_modifier float="1.5"/>             <!-- modifies the chance of success if the target is allied with spy faction -->
          <spy_target_engaged_modifier float="1.0"/>       <!-- modifies the chance of success if target is in engagement, under siege or battle -->
          <spy_in_settlement_modifier float="1.5"/>        <!-- modifies the chance of success if spy in settlement they are spying on -->
          <spy_watchtower_modifier float="2.5"/>           <!-- modifies the chance of success if spying object is a watchtower -->
          <spy_in_own_region_modifier float="2.0"/>        <!-- modifies the chance of success if spy in in their own factions region -->
          <spy_chance_min int="1"/>                        <!-- min clamp for spy chance -->
          <spy_chance_max int="99"/>                       <!-- max clamp for spy chance -->
          <spy_rescale_chance bool="true"/>               <!-- flag to indicate if the final chance is non-linearly rescaled to improve spying chance of success -->
       </agents>
       <crusades>
          <required_jihad_piety int="4"/>
          <max_disband_progress float="20.0"/>
          <near_target_no_disband_distance float="4.0"/>
          <disband_progress_window float="3"/>
          <crusade_called_start_turn float="20"/>
          <jihad_called_start_turn float="20"/>
          <movement_points_modifier float="2.0"/>
       </crusades>
       <ai>
          <!-- PRIEST CONTROLLER -->
          <priest_religion_min float="0.5"/>         <!-- if religion < religion_min then region needs a priest -->
          <priest_religion_max float="0.6"/>         <!-- if religion >= religion_max then a priest can be taken from this region for other missions -->
          <priest_heresey_min float="0.05"/>         <!-- if heresey >= heresey_min then region needs a priest -->
          <priest_heresey_max float="0.3"/>          <!-- if heresey >= heresey_max then region needs a priest with highest priority -->
          <priest_religion_export float="0.5"/>      <!-- if my religion in foreign region < religion_export then then we will export our religion in this region -->
          <priest_max_prod_turns float="5.0"/>       <!-- max distance from a production center to a target region in turns -->
          <!--CAMPAIGN ATTACK -->
          <att_str_modifier float = "0.75"/>            <!-- modifies the effective attackers strength when determining the priority of making attack decision (i.e. att_def_strength_ratio = ((att_str*att_str_modifier)/def_str) -->
          <siege_att_str_modifier float="0.75"/>      <!-- modifies the effective sieging attackers strength when determining the priority of making attack decision -->
          <crusade_att_str_modifier float = "1.0"/><!--modifies the effective crusading sieging attackers strength when determining the priority of making attack decision -->
          <sally_att_str_modifier float="0.75"/>      <!-- modifies the effective sallying attackers strength when determining the priority of making attack decision -->
          <ambush_att_str_modifier float = "1.25"/><!--modifies the effective ambushing attackers strength when determining the priority of making attack decision -->
          <str_limit_weak float = "0.75"/>              <!-- min ideal strength ratio modifier for determining when an army is far too weak for an attack ( att_def_strength_ratio < (ideal_str_ratio*str_limit_weak) ) -->
          <str_limit_strong float = "999.0"/>            <!-- max ideal strength ratio modifier for determining when an army is far too strong for a fair attack ( att_def_strength_ratio > (ideal_str_ratio*str_limit_strong) ) -->
          <merchant_min_survival_acquire int = "75"/><!--the minimum survival chance for a merchant to consider attempting an acquisition -->
       </ai>
       <misc>
          <allow_resource_forts bool="true"/>       <!-- do we allow forts and watchtowers to be built on resource locations -->
          <fort_devastation_distance uint="20"/>     <!-- maximum movement point extents for determining devastation tile targets for forts -->
          <army_devastation_distance uint="20"/>     <!-- maximum movement point extents for determining devastation tile targets for field armies -->
          <fort_devastation_modifier float="2.0"/>   <!-- num devastated tiles modifier for forts -->
          <army_devastation_modifier float="1.0"/>   <!-- num devastated tiles modifier for field armies -->
          <allow_enemy_forts bool="true"/>          <!-- do we allow forts to be built in enemy regions -->
          <siege_movement_points_modifier float="1.0"/>  <!-- movement points modifier for siege units -->
          <cavalry_movement_points_modifier float="1.75"/> <!-- movement points modifier for cavalry units -->
          <enable_hotseat_messages bool="true"/>          <!-- do we allow hotseat messages to be send between human players -->
    	  <enable_banana_republic_cheat bool="true"/>
    	  <build_points_modifier float="0.1"/>
    	  <garrison_strength int = "0.1"/>
          <enable_unit_accent_overrides bool="true"/>	<!-- do we use unit db accent overrides for campaign unit selection -->
       </misc>
    </root>

  2. #22
    Domaje's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Thanks a lot Quintus !

  3. #23

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Hey so last time I tried this all units just had 2hp and it made ranged units and javelins absolute useless as units could just tank volleys and not take any losses. Has anything change since then or is it still they same?

  4. #24

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribal View Post
    Hey so last time I tried this all units just had 2hp and it made ranged units and javelins absolute useless as units could just tank volleys and not take any losses. Has anything change since then or is it still they same?
    LOL what? the role of ranged units in this mod is precisely to take away that additional HP and make enemies easier to kill in the ensuing melee. The fact that in this mod the ranged weapons' hit rate is significantly raised in the battle_config.xml file means that even weaker ranged weapons like the infamously useless 7 attack javelin now is actually relevant. In vanilla EBII weaker ranged weapons are a total waste of time and money, except if you do like Quintus always say that is to hit enemies in the back. That is like admitting that they are useless, because everything is effective if you hit the enemy in the back, sorry but this is the sad truth, no offense, just facts.

  5. #25
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    LOL what? the role of ranged units in this mod is precisely to take away that additional HP and make enemies easier to kill in the ensuing melee. The fact that in this mod the ranged weapons' hit rate is significantly raised in the battle_config.xml file means that even weaker ranged weapons like the infamously useless 7 attack javelin now is actually relevant. In vanilla EBII weaker ranged weapons are a total waste of time and money, except if you do like Quintus always say that is to hit enemies in the back. That is like admitting that they are useless, because everything is effective if you hit the enemy in the back, sorry but this is the sad truth, no offense, just facts.
    Missiles are most effective when they're not fired into the shields of men who can see them coming. See the battle of Carrhae, where the swarms of arrows fired on the Roman legionaries were not very threatening, rather they forced them to stay on station, in the hot sun, for many hours. Making them too weak to resist the subsequent cavalry action when they tried to flee for cover.

  6. #26

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Missiles are most effective when they're not fired into the shields of men who can see them coming. See the battle of Carrhae, where the swarms of arrows fired on the Roman legionaries were not very threatening, rather they forced them to stay on station, in the hot sun, for many hours. Making them too weak to resist the subsequent cavalry action when they tried to flee for cover.
    I was thinking of javelins mainly, and particularly about "prec" units that are given 7 attack javelins, which are useful only against very lightly defended skirmishers, and useless as a pre-charge "softener" against comparable units. Even 12 attack longche are often underwhelming. Please, don't come again with the old "you should just flank" answer, we all know that wasn't very common historically, especially from "prec" line infantry. Even when flanking movements occurred, they were performed usually by a very small part of the total force, so if we follow your reasoning 90% of the men carried around a useless weapon "just because", with only the tiny flanking force expecting to use it effectively. Not very likely IMO.

    All that while the akontistai rabble, which cost nothing and AFAIK should be just a nuisance to line infantry unless they ambush them, carry deadly 16 attack javelins, third best after the terrifying soliferrum and pilum. In my view, it seems a clear design mistake (again, no offense).

    Honestly I don't even understand your denial of a problem that is very easy to fix. Just raise the attack values of line infantry javelins when necessary, so that they can perform their role of shock weapons properly, as I did in my EDU. Not that they should cause massive casualties like the aforementioned metallic javeins, but at least they should have some impact.

    Sure, probably both this problem and the ineffective infantry charges could be mitigated if you raised a bit hit values in battle_config, but I see it could badly mess the whole balance of the system.

  7. #27
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    The "shock" value was a Roman (and Iberian) thing, not universal. I had a chat with Ibrahim about it, and his view was:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim
    Well, the gap is easily explained if you remember that we have two different ways of launching the projectile: one with the Ankyle, and one without. Naturally the ones with the ankyle have a higher attack. If he wants the attack to go up, he needs to demonstrate the universal usage of this particular device, with even non-skirmishers. As it is, most sources I'm aware of say they didn't. Here's one such:

    https://romanarmy.info/charge1_eleme..._elements.html

    I also recommend the work by Mike Bishop on the Pilum.

    Obviously these are pilum-related, but the issues present for the pilum were doubtless present for regular javelins.

    The pilum and soliferrum get around this by having heavier missiles. Most of the armies here don't have either. And anyway, the role of the jevelin in the hand sof heavy infantry is pretty much to disrupt and suppress the enemy; the decision was invariably by way of the charge.

    https://romanarmy.info/fighting1/fighting1.html

    Akontistai and other skirmishers don't have this issue, as their equipment and tactical role preclude them engaging in melee: they're meant to chuck javelins at a distance, and can use all means to do so.

    Put bluntly: no, there was no mistake, there is none, and there won't be any.
    There's not much evidence the ankyle was used by non-skirmishers, or that javelins were used for anything besides disruption. Units like the Thureophoroi were flankers.

  8. #28

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The "shock" value was a Roman (and Iberian) thing, not universal. I had a chat with Ibrahim about it, and his view was:



    There's not much evidence the ankyle was used by non-skirmishers, or that javelins were used for anything besides disruption. Units like the Thureophoroi were flankers.
    "Disruption" doesn't translate into anything in gameplay terms, except maybe "create some gaps in the enemy line" = "kill some enemies" = raise the damn attack or hit rate values.
    Ankyle or not, I don't think skirmisher javelins should be almost at pilum level of power, and, for example, batoroi javelins be totally useless except when thrown in the back. This doesn't seem to be in accord with history or realism and it's just bad gameplay IMHO. Anyway it's your mod, if you are fine with that, I will not complain any further. Ceterum censeo, thanks for the mod.

  9. #29
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    "Disruption" doesn't translate into anything in gameplay terms, except maybe "create some gaps in the enemy line" = "kill some enemies" = raise the damn attack or hit rate values.
    Ankyle or not, I don't think skirmisher javelins should be almost at pilum level of power, and, for example, batoroi javelins be totally useless except when thrown in the back. This doesn't seem to be in accord with history or realism and it's just bad gameplay IMHO. Anyway it's your mod, if you are fine with that, I will not complain any further. Ceterum censeo, thanks for the mod.
    Skirmisher javelins are not at "pilum level of power", the attack rating in the EDU is not the only property that matters for missiles. There are also values in the descr_projectiles which have a host of other impacts besides, which means those javelins are nowhere near as effect as pila.

  10. #30

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Skirmisher javelins are not at "pilum level of power", the attack rating in the EDU is not the only property that matters for missiles. There are also values in the descr_projectiles which have a host of other impacts besides, which means those javelins are nowhere near as effect as pila.
    I didn't look at your descr_projectile file yet, but now I see a couple of very unusual things:
    1) Why heavier javelins have lower mass values than lighter javelins? In other mods is obviously the opposite for apparently good reasons.
    2) Why the soliferreum and the pilum have the damage_to_troops attribute, usually exclusive to siege weapons, again for apparently obvious reasons?

    And there's a couple of questions I'd like to ask on the matter, since I'm already bothering you . Do "radius" and "velocity" parameters affect battle performance in your experience, or are they purely cosmetic? Thank you.

  11. #31
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Aper View Post
    I didn't look at your descr_projectile file yet, but now I see a couple of very unusual things:
    1) Why heavier javelins have lower mass values than lighter javelins? In other mods is obviously the opposite for apparently good reasons.
    2) Why the soliferreum and the pilum have the damage_to_troops attribute, usually exclusive to siege weapons, again for apparently obvious reasons?

    And there's a couple of questions I'd like to ask on the matter, since I'm already bothering you . Do "radius" and "velocity" parameters affect battle performance in your experience, or are they purely cosmetic? Thank you.
    From the expert:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibrahim
    1-because the higher the mass, the less deadly the projectile
    2-because to use damage would mean it also affects buildings? I recall some experiments on the subject as well, when the idea came for testing the concept of fire-javelins (Trarco mentioned the idea).

    yes, radius and velocity matter; the former because the wider projectiles strike more men across the line, and the latter because in combination with the accuracy (in the same file) and accuracy in that xml file affect how many missiles actually hit people.

    If you want a dramatic example, set a unit to an attack of 30, range 200, accuracy (in descr_projectile) of 0.32. Once done, compare the effect when the velocity is 85 meters, to that when it's 185 meters.
    Essentially, mass is inverse in the descr_projectiles, one of those vagaries of the game.

    And the elements of that file (which define the properties of a projectile) matter more than the number in the EDU alone.

  12. #32

    Default Re: [Submod] Alternative Battles

    Thanks for the guide, very interesting stuff. What I find odd is that I remember Point Blank claimed that higher projectile mass aid in armor penetration, and never said anything about the lower lethality. Some time ago in his Real combat mod he ditched the ap attribute for ranged weapons, raised projectile mass according to projectile quality, and apparently he saw no drawbacks . Maybe the lower casualties are less apparent because in his mod hit rates are higher? It's all so damn complicated.

    About point 2, so damage to troops is a leftover from the time when you were testing if fire-javelins could affect buildings, but now it has no effect? I quote from the guide you linked:
    "I wonder what the "damage" attribute does and more importantly "damage_to_troops". I tried giving arrows "damage_to_troops 100", but it doesn't seem to increase the casaulties. In fact I have an impression that my archers did worse.

    "Damage" is even weirder. It gives damage against buildings, but it decreases damage against troops.

    Just why did CA make such a complicated and strange file.


    Please if anyone knows, post what you know - especially about these two attributes."

    "Thank you

    To make things simple, you don,t have to bother with those attributes unless you plan to do siege weapon's projectiles in which case those ones are very important. If you want to play with ranged unit projectile (archer, crossbowmen notably), just ignore these lines and tweak the values in the Export_Descr_Unit."

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