View Poll Results: Please answer after reading the conclusion. Please note that I would not increase the recruitment cost by much.

Voters
5. You may not vote on this poll
  • Better elite units (+ Accuracy, + Morale, + Recruitment Cost)

    2 40.00%
  • Better elite units (+Accuracy, +Reload speed, +Morale, +Recruitment Cost)

    3 60.00%
  • Don't change anything.

    0 0%
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Thread: Poll - Next update, the question of elite units (and a few news)

  1. #1
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Icon5 Poll - Next update, the question of elite units (and a few news)

    Good day to you.
    I'm not really much of a modder anymore.
    I had many projects, cooperating with the Imperial Splendour Team as to help them with the Ottoman Empire was one of them. Though I could do some research, and share extensive information with them, I couldn't do anything more than that and I quite regret it .

    Time is passing, with my studies, and studies matter more than modding. So, I do still mod, but not nearly as much as before. And, I do it at a slower rate.
    Still, I am intending on bringing a new update, fix a few bugs, and tweak a few settings.

    I will be release 2.6.1 ; for the already planned features please go there : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?747696-Changelog-and-future-updates

    Now for the question :
    Elite Units :
    I've always felt light elite units aren't up to the cut in Empire : Total War. They are often significantly better in close quarters than regular units, but are hardly any better than regular units at a range, indeed defeating lower quality units but at the cost of many casualties.

    So I considered an update where, the top tier elite units (Guard Infantry, Siemenovski Guards, Household Cavalry), the kind of units that were supposed to be the guards of the kings, lords, and a cut above all other should be boosted, as well as their cost increased.

    What are your thoughts on that ?

    Base Stats :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Line Infantry : Accuracy - 40 ; Reload Speed - 25
    Guard Infantry : Accuracy - 50 ; Reload Speed - 55

    Testing Accuracy :

    I will do this test shooting against an unit that doesn't shoot back. So they always shoot, at max range, with max numbers of troops.

    Line Infantry
    Volley 1 - 10 kills
    Volley 2 - 9 kills
    Volley 3 - 11 kills
    Vollet 4 - 10 kills
    Volley 5 - 8 kills

    Average : 9.6 volley kills per volley ; it is 6% chance to hit the target, very close to the historical numbers.

    Guards
    Volley 1 - 12 kills
    Volley 2 - 10 kills
    Volley 3 - 9 kills
    Volley 4 - 12 kills
    Volley 5 - 8 kills

    Average : 10.2 kills per volley ; it is around 6.5% chance to hit the target


    Explanation :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    For cause, 10 accuracy in Empire Total War doesn't mean that much. Projectiles have a base spread, and that base spread doesn't change no matter how precise the unit.
    The accuracy is the chance to have a shot in the calibration target area.

    For example, currently an unit shoots at a 8 meters size target at 70m. If he has 100 accuracy and no spread, there is 100% chance to shoot a 8m target at 60 meters.
    But there is a spread of 8 as well. So, target area is closer to 16 meters.

    The accuracy is the % chance to hit shoot within that 16m area at 70m. So, one has 40% chance to shoot within that 16m area, the other has 50% chance to shoot within that 16m area, that makes the difference is very minor.


    Reload Rate :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    There is a base animation duration (4s) and a base reload time set in the "projectiles" table. The base reload time is 10s. The reload rate reduces the second value.

    25 Reload :
    4 + 10*0.75 = 11.5s to reload

    55 Reload :
    4 + 10*0.45 = 8.5s to reload

    In 60 seconds, in ideal conditions :
    An unit with 25 reload will fire 5 volleys.
    An unit with 55 reload will fire 7 volleys.


    CONCLUSION :

    Line Infantry : Cost - 2120 (260) ; Kill rate 50 kills in 60 seconds.
    Guards : Cost - 4470 (390) ; Kill rate 70 kills in 60 seconds

    Therefore, guards seem very cost ineffectieve when it comes to ranged combat. They have a better morale, and better melee, but they don't seem up to the cut, I believe, in ranged combat.
    What should I do ? Or suggest something here below

    Please answer the poll above.
    Last edited by Goutlard; March 21, 2018 at 09:46 PM.
    Ottoman Total Overhaul received the 2nd favorite Overhaul/Compilation Mod - 2016 award !



  2. #2
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Poll - Next update, the question of elite units (and a few news)

    Is there any historical data about the performance differences between regular infantry and elite infantry in any area? If yes, try to emulate that difference as much as possible, provided that the rest of the game mechanics make it sensible. In any case, elite units should be relatively rare in an army (unless the economy, training facilities etc are exceptional), so the recruitment costs etc ought to support this distribution or proportion.
    Last edited by Demokritos; March 22, 2018 at 05:31 PM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing In Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  3. #3
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: Poll - Next update, the question of elite units (and a few news)

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    Is there any historical data about the performance differences between regular infantry and elite infantry in any area? If yes, try to emulate that difference as much as possible, provided that the rest of the game mechanics make it sensible. In any case, elite units should be relatively rare in an army (unless the economy, training facilities etc are exceptional), so the recruitment costs etc ought to support this distribution or proportion.
    Unfortunately most data doesn't say much more than "The average infantryman had an accuracy of estimated 5%". There isn't much said about the accuracy of elite units, of militiamen. So, I did take this number as a baseline, and it works rather well, using the cohesion to make the first volley above 5% (no smoke in front of them, clear line of sight, no fatigue) then the latter at 5%, and slowly getting below.

    As for elite units, I consider not increasing their accuracy by any significant value, it shouldn't be above 7.5 to 8%. They were known for reloading significantly faster than regular line infantrymen, and for standing ground better. So, maybe adding 5 accuracy, probably getting their accuracy closer to between 6.75 and 7.25%, but then increasing their reload rate would make for a more accurate representation.

    I fully agree with the point : "In any case, elite units should be relatively rare in an army"

    That is why I intend on making those units the less cost effective the more you have of them. One or two inspiring regular troops should be great. But, making an entire army of elite troops would require a massive treasury, reforming after losses should be very expensive, and an elite soldiers dies just as easily as a militiaman. A regular army may be easier to rout, but should be much more cost-effective.

    --

    Edit : Costs I consider for the next update :
    Line Infantry : Recruitment 2120 - Upkeep 260 (Same as currently)
    Guards : Recruitment 5824 - Upkeep 478

    I don't want to put unit limits on units that currently don't have any, those feel a bit artificial.
    Last edited by Goutlard; March 23, 2018 at 08:43 AM.
    Ottoman Total Overhaul received the 2nd favorite Overhaul/Compilation Mod - 2016 award !



  4. #4
    Goutlard's Avatar Janissary
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    Default Re: Poll - Next update, the question of elite units (and a few news)

    All right I consider the poll finished, not that many votes unfortunately but the result has been applied to the current update (Ottoman Total Overhaul 2.6.1)
    Ottoman Total Overhaul received the 2nd favorite Overhaul/Compilation Mod - 2016 award !



  5. #5
    SharpEyed's Avatar Be Fair and Thankful!
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    Default Re: Poll - Next update, the question of elite units (and a few news)

    Good to see you keep going, I wish you best of luck
    Under the proud patronage of mighty Emperor M


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