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Thread: Free Speech in the UK

  1. #1161
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    What does the current conversation have to do with freedom of speech?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
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  2. #1162

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Fortunately, the conversation is surprisingly on-topic.

    Fact: At least one person has been jailed for posting anti-muslim call in the UK, as in "bomb a muslim day".

    Some members here believe that jailing is legit because he COULD have done for it, and cite incidents like the Christchurch in NZ shooting as precedent.

    And now I propose counter-argument: I guess people should jail muslims like in China due to all the Bomb of Peace and Truck of Peace incidents by muslims have done across the world.
    Last edited by REhorror; June 01, 2019 at 06:21 AM.

  3. #1163
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Good question, Aexodus! The relevance seems to be whether, because of freedom of speech, people should be allowed to call for others to carry out terrorist attacks on mosques.

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Fact: At least one person has been jailed for posting anti-muslim call in the UK, as in "bomb a muslim day".
    You linked to a source which claimed that Nigel Pelham was jailed for "Posting Mean Things About Muslims On Facebook". Do you not see any difference between 'posting mean things' and 'calling for bombings'?

    I asked whether you were saying that people should be allowed to call for others to carry out terrorist attacks on mosques. It sounds like you are. Is that right?

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    And now I propose counter-argument: I guess people should jail muslims like in China due to all the Bomb of Peace and Truck of Peace incidents by muslims have done across the world.
    Are you saying that British Muslims should be jailed for being Muslims, even though the Muslim Council of Britain condemns terrorist attacks?

    Your posts seem to support jailing people who oppose terrorist attacks, and not jailing people who call for them.

  4. #1164

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    You linked to a source which claimed that Nigel Pelham was jailed for "Posting Mean Things About Muslims On Facebook". Do you not see any difference between 'posting mean things' and 'calling for bombings'?

    I asked whether you were saying that people should be allowed to call for others to carry out terrorist attacks on mosques. It sounds like you are. Is that right?
    Yes, that is right, I do not see a difference between a "bomb a muslim" day and "posting mean things" about muslim, both are words and neither are threats.
    Are you saying that British Muslims should be jailed for being Muslims, even though the Muslim Council of Britain condemns terrorist attacks?

    Your posts seem to support jailing people who oppose terrorist attacks, and not jailing people who call for them.
    Yes, I am, the Muslim Council of Britain do not speak for the muslims in Britain. Their words are worthless just like the word of the dude who calls for "bomb a muslim" day.
    Last edited by REhorror; June 01, 2019 at 07:40 AM.

  5. #1165
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Yes, that is right, I do not see a difference between a "bomb a muslim" day and "posting mean things" about muslim, both are words and neither are threats.
    How is calling for terrorist attacks on mosques not a threat?

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Yes, I am, the Muslim Council of Britain do not speak for the muslims in Britain. Their words are worthless just like the word of the dude who calls for "bomb a muslim" day.
    When they condemn terrorism, they speak for a lot of British Muslims - yet you want them to be jailed for being Muslims.

  6. #1166

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    How is calling for terrorist attacks on mosques not a threat?
    How is that a threat at all? It sounds like a joke.
    When they condemn terrorism, they speak for a lot of British Muslims - yet you want them to be jailed for being Muslims.
    Because again, they do not speak for ALL "British" muslims - and thus it doesn't mean anything, because it only takes ONE muslim to kill people.

    Thus if you support jailing a dude for making a joke because he COULD do it, why not jailing all muslims because one of them COULD do it as well?

  7. #1167
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    How is that a threat at all? It sounds like a joke.

    Because again, they do not speak for ALL "British" muslims - and thus it doesn't mean anything, because it only takes ONE muslim to kill people.

    Thus if you support jailing a dude for making a joke because he COULD do it, why not jailing all muslims because one of them COULD do it as well?
    How is calling for terrorist attacks on mosques funny? Did the shooting of Muslims at mosques in New Zealand make you smile and laugh?

    I support jailing someone who encourages others to commit terrorism. You've said that you want to jail Muslims simply for being Muslims and to allow people to encourage others to bomb mosques.

  8. #1168
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Fortunately, the conversation is surprisingly on-topic.

    Fact: At least one person has been jailed for posting anti-muslim call in the UK, as in "bomb a muslim day".

    Some members here believe that jailing is legit because he COULD have done for it, and cite incidents like the Christchurch in NZ shooting as precedent.

    And now I propose counter-argument: I guess people should jail muslims like in China due to all the Bomb of Peace and Truck of Peace incidents by muslims have done across the world.
    You realise calling for ‘bomb a muslim day’ is pretty much direct incitement of violence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  9. #1169

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    My Muslim friends support those freedoms, they don't see Islam as incompatible with them. As they're Muslims, I think they're well-qualified to say what they believe.
    That's an anecdotal claim, which can't be verified. However, we do have objective evidence based on existing Muslim-majority countries, which do not share such notions and tend to directly oppose them.
    You seem to perceive Islam as one fixed set of ideas which can only be interpreted in one way. Like other religions, Islamic beliefs vary between Muslims. Consider the different styles of dress which Muslim women wear, for example, as different Muslims interpret the religious duty of modest dress in different ways. Some wear a hijab, shalwar kameez or a burqa, some wear European-style clothes.
    That's not the point. The point is that Islam is inherently authoritarian, as we see that pretty much all Islamic societies have to use force to make sure their religious customs are practiced, while in pretty much every Muslim country non-Muslims are treated as second-class citizens, if not worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post

    I support jailing someone who encourages others to commit terrorism.
    Desire to punish people for expression of words, no matter what those words are, is ultimately anti-Western and also a sign of mental weakness and insecurity in your own beliefs. Words can't really hurt people and using "calls of violence" as convenient excuse is just a way to establish precedent to be able to suppress any wrongthink. After all, if calls for violence are an issue, you must also support banning Islam, Christianity and Judaism, as all of those religions preach violence against specific groups of people. Many political ideologies- same thing, and it isn't just limited to communism or fascism, liberalism itself has a rather bloody history from horrid massacres of French revolution to modern-day "importations of democracy".
    Ultimately, you can only achieve real progress via free market of opinions. Extreme or violent opinion would always lose in a coherent debate, and if you refuse to debate, then your opinion is worthless.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; June 01, 2019 at 02:13 PM.

  10. #1170
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Let’s forget about Muslim majority countries for a moment.

    What is it you feel you want to say about Islam or its followers that is being restricted in the UK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  11. #1171

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Let’s forget about Muslim majority countries for a moment.

    What is it you feel you want to say about Islam or its followers that is being restricted in the UK.
    Islam is an archaic and authoritarian cult, and it should be allowed to criticize it as such.

  12. #1172
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    I agree with the second part of your post. Some however, disagree, such as those who support the APPG definition of Islamophobia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  13. #1173

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Well, you ask for anti-muslim protester got jailed, you got it.
    And "no more muslim" is hate speech, really?
    I have another: https://www.dailywire.com/news/17807...-joshua-yasmeh
    What you posted was a case of someone scratching public benches. That's a case of vandalism.

    For your second link, as Alwyn kindly pointed out, your man is jailed for suggesting "bomb a mosque day" while your link tries its best to whitewash that. That's a man getting jailed for calling for violence.

    So far, the examples you could come up with are abysmal. They're a reflection of the merit-less nature of your position.
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  14. #1174

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    How is calling for terrorist attacks on mosques funny? Did the shooting of Muslims at mosques in New Zealand make you smile and laugh?
    It's funny because it's not killing or shooting muslim, the thought of BOMBING is pretty funny mental image.
    I support jailing someone who encourages others to commit terrorism. You've said that you want to jail Muslims simply for being Muslims and to allow people to encourage others to bomb mosques.
    No, because there's no proof he's actually serious when he says that, just that he COULD do it, the exact same reasoning can be applied to muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    You realise calling for ‘bomb a muslim day’ is pretty much direct incitement of violence.
    No, not when he does as a joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What you posted was a case of someone scratching public benches. That's a case of vandalism.

    For your second link, as Alwyn kindly pointed out, your man is jailed for suggesting "bomb a mosque day" while your link tries its best to whitewash that. That's a man getting jailed for calling for violence.

    So far, the examples you could come up with are abysmal. They're a reflection of the merit-less nature of your position.
    Jailed for vandalism, really?

    No, "bomb a mosque day" can be seen as a joke, and it's exactly a moment where free speech comes in and should have protected him.

  15. #1175
    Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Desire to punish people for expression of words, no matter what those words are, is ultimately anti-Western and also a sign of mental weakness and insecurity in your own beliefs. Words can't really hurt people and using "calls of violence" as convenient excuse is just a way to establish precedent to be able to suppress any wrongthink.
    Prove it.

    I'm pretty sure the words on the orders to gas jews to nazi officers, hurt people.

    I'm pretty sure the words "god will know his own" ended up hurting people.

    I'm pretty sure saying the words to a subornate as a superior "Shoot them all" will hurt people.

    I'm pretty sure the three men killed by a mob, based on the false words that claimed they were pedophiles, was the reason they died.

    That is a steaming turd of an augment and frankly reflected poorly on your ability to be rational.

    Islam is a nebulous and broad category, the fact there are fundamentalist Islamists, doesn't not mean all of Islam, or even the majority of it, is.

    When did free speech become enforced listening anyway?
    Last edited by Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!; June 01, 2019 at 09:52 PM.
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  16. #1176

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Jailed for vandalism, really?
    No, "bomb a mosque day" can be seen as a joke, and it's exactly a moment where free speech comes in and should have protected him.
    Yes, scratching stuff on public property is usually taken as vandalism. The guy was caught while doing it, as the police was investigating a dozen or so cases where benches were scratched to say "no more Muslims". That's no protest.

    No, "bomb a mosque day" can not be seen as a joke. It's insanely bizarre to see it that way.
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  17. #1177
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Well actually saying we should bomb something can very much be a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  18. #1178
    Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Well actually saying we should bomb something can very much be a joke.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19009344

    Just because something can be a joke, doesn't always make it one.

    Thing about jokes is, they're supposed to be funny. If you go around taking that joke "let's bomb Russia" seriously, it's no longer a joke, it's violence. It all depends on context.
    GIVE CREDIT TO YOUR ENEMY AND LITTLE TO YOURSELF, AS IT MAKES YOUR VICTORY ALL THE GREATER!
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  19. #1179

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfire -WONDERBOLT! View Post
    Prove it.

    I'm pretty sure the words on the orders to gas jews to nazi officers, hurt people.

    I'm pretty sure the words "god will know his own" ended up hurting people.

    I'm pretty sure saying the words to a subornate as a superior "Shoot them all" will hurt people.

    I'm pretty sure the three men killed by a mob, based on the false words that claimed they were pedophiles, was the reason they died.

    That is a steaming turd of an augment and frankly reflected poorly on your ability to be rational.
    Orders to subordinates imply coercion and thus responsibility for one issuing them since the one following has no legal choice but to follow them. People have a right to not listen to a statement made publicly, let alone follow its message if it has one. I'm surprised I even have to explain the difference.
    Talking about making arguments that reflect poorly on one's ability to be rational...
    Islam is a nebulous and broad category, the fact there are fundamentalist Islamists, doesn't not mean all of Islam, or even the majority of it, is.
    The fact that majority of Muslim societies do not really believe in "moderation" and directly oppose it proves you wrong.
    When did free speech become enforced listening anyway?
    Dude, you do realize that nobody is forced to listen to public statements, right?

  20. #1180
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Indeed. Context matters.

    Scottish courts however don’t feel the same way. http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk...v-Mark-Meechan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

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