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Thread: Free Speech in the UK

  1. #1101

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sure. I don't see much of a problem with how they described it. Islamophobia is a form of bigotry that often leads to discrimination.
    So it is bigoted to be against bigotry? Islam is bigoted against so many groups of people.

  2. #1102

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So it is bigoted to be against bigotry? Islam is bigoted against so many groups of people.
    Whether someone's take on a subject is bigoted or not is not dependent on whether that subject itself is bigoted or not.
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  3. #1103

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Whether someone's take on a subject is bigoted or not is not dependent on whether that subject itself is bigoted or not.
    But that's not even correct meaning of the term. "Phobia" implies irrational fear, which isn't the case with criticism of Islam, since such criticism is based on rational arguments. Hence why "islamophobia" is not a real thing.

  4. #1104
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You don't think it falls within that definition? Then you say it falls within that, which is APPG's definition, definition. Does not compute.
    I’m saying it does fall within the APPG’s specific definition.

    Therefore, the APPG definition is bogus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  5. #1105

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    But that's not even correct meaning of the term. "Phobia" implies irrational fear, which isn't the case with criticism of Islam, since such criticism is based on rational arguments. Hence why "islamophobia" is not a real thing.
    Well, when you setup a false premise like that, sure, it's easy to create a defensible position. We're not talking about regular criticism of Islam. People don't get triggered mainly by that. Yet, when someone gets agitated and starts making a scene just because someone with a headscarf enters the room that's pretty much irrational fear, hence, Islamophobia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I’m saying it does fall within the APPG’s specific definition.
    Therefore, the APPG definition is bogus.
    Then I guess you used "me neither" wrong. How does it fall within the APPG's specific definition?
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  6. #1106

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Well, when you setup a false premise like that, sure, it's easy to create a defensible position. We're not talking about regular criticism of Islam. People don't get triggered mainly by that. Yet, when someone gets agitated and starts making a scene just because someone with a headscarf enters the room that's pretty much irrational fear, hence, Islamophobia.
    Being against abuse of women is not irrational.

  7. #1107
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Then I guess you used "me neither" wrong. How does it fall within the APPG's specific definition?
    It is seen as an expression of Muslimness.

    Within the guidelines in the report itself it says so.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ia+Defined.pdf
    Denying Muslim populations the right to self- determination e.g., by claiming that the existence of an independent Palestine or Kashmir is a terrorist endeavour.
    Edit: i just wanna add this analysis by Sir John Jenkins of the definition so we can refer to it later on.

    https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-con...lamophobia.pdf
    Last edited by Aexodus; May 18, 2019 at 02:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  8. #1108

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It is seen as an expression of Muslimness.
    Within the guidelines in the report itself it says so.
    https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...ia+Defined.pdf
    Edit: i just wanna add this analysis by Sir John Jenkins of the definition so we can refer to it later on.
    https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-con...lamophobia.pdf
    The focus in that wording is the existence, hence, denial of self-determination. Basically, if you call Palestine or Kashmir just because they exists it's a case of Islamophobia. In any case, their take on the term doesn't take value from the term itself. Just like just because some people love to equate anti-Israeli sentiment with anti-Jewish sentiments doesn't mean that anti-Jewish sentiments doesn't exist.
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  9. #1109
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    "islamophobia" is not a real thing.
    Islamophobia and antisemitism: both are real.
    Islamophobia is real. Stop the obsession with semantics

    But let us consider the term “antisemitism”, for example. Literally, it would refer to bigotry against Semites (defined by the Cambridge Dictionary as the Arabs and Jews of the Middle East). However, its meaning is defined and well understood to be bigotry against Jews in particular.

    Furthermore, the definition goes beyond simple hate and includes antisemitic tropes still commonplace in many sections of our society. If someone were to try to claim that an Arab could not be antisemitic because an Arab is a Semite, they would roundly and rightly be condemned as playing semantic games.Similarly, most people of good faith understand that Islamophobia as a concept or social phenomenon also goes beyond a literalist dictionary definition.
    The term was first popularised by the Runnymede Trust in a report published in 1997. The term had emerged following the need for a specific word to focus minds and lead to substantive action against growing anti-Muslim prejudice. It was initially defined as “unfounded hostility towards Muslims, and therefore fear or dislike of all or most Muslims” with the “phobia” element based on the common “xenophobia” framework in a similar way to homophobia.

    From the outset and in that Runnymede report, it has always been made clear that Islamophobia does not encompass disagreement, criticism or even condemnation of Islam. It is complete hogwash to pretend otherwise.

    Yet, in order to cast doubt on the premise of the term, detractors consistently try to conflate critique of the faith with the broader hostility towards the people of that faith.

    It must be noted, however, that there are some who hide behind “criticism of Islam” as they attempt to legitimise their bigotry, such as author Douglas Murray’s theory that less Islam is a solution to terrorism. While using the term “Islam”, what that implies is that we need fewer Muslims to keep British shores safe.

    It is difficult to understand how such a goal could be achieved other than through some form of ethnic cleansing or mass deportation. This is not “criticism of Islam” and falls well within the scope of Islamophobia.
    In order to placate those bullies wishing to delegitimize claims of Islamophobia, there are some who are now naively providing cover for this type of bigotry by calling for the use of the term “anti-Muslim hatred” instead, seemingly to ensure action against Islamophobia is not derailed by a discussion on definition.

    However, Islamophobia goes far beyond mere hatred. As the latest Runnymede report states: “Referring only to ‘anti-Muslim hate’ (or even ‘anti-Muslim prejudice and discrimination’) doesn’t fully capture the widespread (or structural) ways racial inequalities persist. It may also get things back to front: prejudicial attitudes about a group develop to justify the economic or political disadvantages experienced by that group.

    The fact that 31% of young children think Muslims are taking over England; the fact that 37% of Brits would support a political party that would reduce the number of Muslims in the UK; the fact that Muslim men are 76% less likely to be employed than their white Christian counterparts; and the fact that half the British Muslim population live in the 10% most deprived areas in the UK. None of these can be constrained to hatred alone – but the contributing factors all fit under this broader umbrella of Islamophobia.

    Furthermore, Islamophobia as a term has become well established with this broader meaning of anti-Muslim racism. Its usage spans across the globe beyond academics and researchers, to mainstream communities, police and media, including our own prime minister, all of whom understand what the term means.

    Islamophobia is real, normalised in many sections of our society and appears to be on the rise in all its forms. Rather than delegitimizing the term, we should call out if it is misused and more importantly, push our government to do something about it.
    In the end, the idea that those who engage in Islamophobia or deny its existence should be driving our word choice is ludicrous, and changing the term will not stop their bigotry.
    For those obsessed with the word, it appears they care far more about semantics than real-world hatred, violence and racism. They seem to think words can hide their own blatant bigotry. They can’t. We see you.
    Last edited by Ludicus; May 18, 2019 at 02:34 PM.
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  10. #1110
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Islamophobia is undoubtedly real, we would just be better off calling anti-muslim sentiment or anti-muslimism etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  11. #1111

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    It is real in the sense that's used by Salafists to push blasphemy laws. The fear of being bombed, run over or similar by Muslims is perfectly justified.

  12. #1112
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It is real in the sense that's used by Salafists to push blasphemy laws. The fear of being bombed, run over or similar by Muslims is perfectly justified.
    Is fear of conservatives "perfectly justified"?

    I'd say no. Conservatives are generally decent, principled people. Political groups tend to have an extremist fringe and there are conservatives on the far right. Some people on the far right have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross misrepresentation of conservatives to say that, because some far-right extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of conservatives is rational. Conservatives generally have no difficulty condemning far-right terrorist attacks.

    The Muslims I know, like the conservatives I know, are generally decent, principled people. Religious groups tend to have an extremist fringe and there are Muslim extremists. Some Islamic extremists have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross misrepresentation of Muslims to say that, because some Islamic extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of Muslims is rational. Muslims generally have no difficulty condemning Islamic extremist terrorist attacks.

    I'm afraid of both far-right terrorism and Islamic extremist terrorism. I'm not afraid of conservatives or Muslims.
    Last edited by Alwyn; May 19, 2019 at 10:10 AM.

  13. #1113

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    It is real in the sense that's used by Salafists to push blasphemy laws. The fear of being bombed, run over or similar by Muslims is perfectly justified.
    It is real in the sense that random Muslims are subjected to hate crimes. The fear of being bombed, run over, or of similar acts by Muslims for a random person is stupendously unjustified.
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  14. #1114
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Is fear of conservatives "perfectly justified"?

    I'd say no. Conservatives are generally decent, principled people. Political group tend to have an extremist fringe and there are conservatives on the far right. Some people on the far right have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross misrepresentation of conservatives to say that, because some far-right extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of conservatives is rational. Conservatives generally have no difficulty condemning far-right terrorist attacks.

    The Muslims I know, like the conservatives I know, are generally decent, principled people. Religious groups tend to have an extremist fringe and there are Muslim extremists. Some Islamic extremists have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross mirepresentation of Muslims to say that, because some Islamic extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of Muslims is rational. Muslims generally have no difficulty condemning Islamic extremist terrorist attacks.

    I'm afraid of both far-right terrorism and Islamic extremist terrorism. I'm not afraid of conservatives or Muslims.
    Exactly^ +rep

    ps. Let me just add that terrorism comes from more than just ethno-nationalists and Islamists.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47626859
    Europol, the European Union's law enforcement agency, recorded five right-wing terror plots in 2017, all of which were in the UK.

    This was out of a total of 205 potential or successful attacks recorded by European intelligence agencies, with 137 "separatist", 24 "left-wing" and 33 "jihadist" plots among them.

    In 2017, a total of 1,219 terror suspects were arrested. Of these, 20 were classified as far-right extremists (705 were "jihadists").

    Last edited by Aexodus; May 19, 2019 at 10:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  15. #1115

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Is fear of conservatives "perfectly justified"?

    I'd say no. Conservatives are generally decent, principled people. Political group tend to have an extremist fringe and there are conservatives on the far right. Some people on the far right have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross misrepresentation of conservatives to say that, because some far-right extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of conservatives is rational. Conservatives generally have no difficulty condemning far-right terrorist attacks.

    The Muslims I know, like the conservatives I know, are generally decent, principled people. Religious groups tend to have an extremist fringe and there are Muslim extremists. Some Islamic extremists have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross mirepresentation of Muslims to say that, because some Islamic extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of Muslims is rational. Muslims generally have no difficulty condemning Islamic extremist terrorist attacks.

    I'm afraid of both far-right terrorism and Islamic extremist terrorism. I'm not afraid of conservatives or Muslims.
    I'm not so sure the problem is whether its "justified" but whether it ought to be legal. If you criminalised a phobia of conservatism, you'd have to arrest half of the Guardian's staff for starters.

  16. #1116

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Exactly^ +rep

    ps. Let me just add that terrorism comes from more than just ethno-nationalists and Islamists.
    I'll just throw it out there, but the biggest war crime in recent history (by consequences and sheer scale of deaths that resulted from it), American 2003 aggression against Iraq, was done in the name of liberalism and democracy. It is safe to say that neoliberalism/neoconservatism are a far bigger threat then all conventionally "extremist" political ideologies combined.

  17. #1117
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    I'm afraid of both far-right terrorism and Islamic extremist terrorism. I'm not afraid of...Muslims.
    This.
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  18. #1118

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    Is fear of conservatives "perfectly justified"?

    I'd say no. Conservatives are generally decent, principled people. Political groups tend to have an extremist fringe and there are conservatives on the far right. Some people on the far right have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross misrepresentation of conservatives to say that, because some far-right extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of conservatives is rational. Conservatives generally have no difficulty condemning far-right terrorist attacks.

    The Muslims I know, like the conservatives I know, are generally decent, principled people. Religious groups tend to have an extremist fringe and there are Muslim extremists. Some Islamic extremists have engaged in terrorist attacks. However, it would be a gross misrepresentation of Muslims to say that, because some Islamic extremists carry out terrorist attacks, therefore fear of Muslims is rational. Muslims generally have no difficulty condemning Islamic extremist terrorist attacks.

    I'm afraid of both far-right terrorism and Islamic extremist terrorism. I'm not afraid of conservatives or Muslims.
    There's a fair difference between fear of Muslims and fear of being bombed or run over by Muslims.

    I don't start running as soon as I see a Muslim. If you are at a club and all of a sudden someone enters and screams ''Allahu Akhbar'' wielding an object you can't identify straight away, do you ignore it as if it's nothing?

  19. #1119
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So it is bigoted to be against bigotry? Islam is bigoted against so many groups of people.
    Personally, I find all the talk of "bigotry" here in regards to Islam highly amusing.

    The hypocrisy on that note is absolute. After all, Islam have produced - and continues to produce - bigotry at world-class levels, all over the world essentially... With all that in mind, one would think it be more fitting if all advocates of Islam would take a (much) more humble posture in any discourse about "bigotry" - since Islam (with its track-record) is hardly in a position to lecture others on the subject. Otherwise, it is hypocrisy and arrogance in the extreme. That said, of course there are intolerance directed at Islam and its willing servants. It is to be expected with a movement of that size and with such a widespread presence across the world. It would be strange otherwise...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; May 20, 2019 at 03:15 AM. Reason: clarity...

  20. #1120
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    On the definition on Islamophobia, Trevor Philips OBE the chair of the Index on Censorship said:

    https://policyexchange.org.uk/wp-con...lamophobia.pdf
    The spectacular misreading of both Muslim needs and non-Muslim attitudes to which the APPG’s report has fallen prey may well serve the interests of sectarians and those hostile to integration between Britain’s communities, especially the Far Right and Islamists; but it will do little to advance the prospects of those who follow the faith, and who want their sincerely held beliefs to find a respected home in British life, just as other faith groups have done over the centuries.
    Mainly he cited the fact that Muslims are to be found across every racial group, so how could it be rooted in racism? If Muslims are targeted for their ‘Muslimness’, how is that racism?

    He says that this makes integration harder, as racism requires the same treatment, whereas religious differences require different solutions.

    My biggest concern is that instead of protecting Muslims, defining Islamophobia as the APPG does – as anti-Muslim racism – will actually make life harder for them. To define Islamophobia as “anti-Muslim” racism means, in effect, that all Muslims should be treated exactly as others are. Tackling Muslim disadvantage demands different treatment for those who declare themselves to be Muslims – with prayer rooms, holiday arrangements and so on. Combating racial disadvantage necessitates the opposite, ensuring that people are treated similarly irrespective of their ethnicity.
    Elsewhere the Policy Exchange report says:

    The report’s Executive Summary claims that “Muslim students who fail to secure entry to Russell Group universities” (p. 8) are victims of Islamophobia. There is not a single piece of evidence in the report to
    support this claim.
    I don’t really have much to add, other than pointing out that the APPG have attributed a result to what they already decided or wanted to be the cause. This has no basis in evidence.

    ’Ofsted questioning the use of the hijab’ is called Islamophobic in the APPG report, despite the fact that many Muslims feel differently about the hijab, and the fact that Ofsted questioning it has nothing to do with hatred of Muslims, rather scepticism of a practice that happens to be Islamic.

    Crucially, the report outlines how the definition could undermine press freedom, and anti-terror efforts by the government.

    The APPG’s definition, if it was officially endorsed, could seriously undermine press freedom, as so much reporting and discussion could potentially be stigmatised as “Islamophobic”.19 Many of those calling for the new expanded definition of Islamophobia have also called for “Leveson II”20 and for a full inquiry into Islamophobia in the British media.21 A capacious definition of Islamophobia might make it more difficult to investigate future stories like the Rotherham grooming scandals22. (Recall how the respected Times journalist Dominic Kennedy23 has been accused of “professional Islamophobia” for reporting another story concerning Islamism.) The same may apply to journalistic investigations such as those into Lutfur Rahman, the disgraced Mayor of Tower Hamlets, who was found guilty of corrupt and illegal practices.24 It may even have implications for the Government’s capacity to act. Would Eric Pickles, as Communities Secretary, have been able to order investigators to look into the financial management of Tower Hamlets, as he did in 201425, without falling foul of this definition of Islamophobia? Would the Government have been able to appoint Peter Clarke as Education Commissioner for Birmingham with a remit to investigate “allegations concerning Birmingham schools arising from the ‘Trojan Horse’ letter” in 2014?26 Would Ofsted have been able to carry out its inspections the same year, after the emergence of the scandal?27 Ministers will have to consider these issues carefully.

    It is worth examining this “contemporary example” of Islamophobia in public life, listed in the APPG’s report:

    “Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Muslims as such, or of Muslims as a collective group, such as, especially but not exclusively, conspiracies about Muslim entryism in politics, government or other societal institutions; the myth of Muslim identity having a unique propensity for terrorism, and claims of a demographic ‘threat’ posed by Muslims or of a ‘Muslim takeover’.” (p. 56)

    What sort of impact would this have on journalistic and official enquiries into these areas? And is there a danger here that the inclusion of “entryism” and “terrorism” would in practice make the government’s counter-extremism strategies “Islamophobic”? It seems that the APPG’s definition could be used as a prelude to a broader assault on aspects of Government policy, particularly the anti-extremism and anti-radicalisation work that has been painstakingly constructed over the last decade. Significantly, many of those who are seeking to weaponise this definition already denounce Prevent as “institutionally Islamophobic”.28
    Interestingly, John Jenkins notes that the inquiry into Islamophobia contains...

    discussion of “intersectionality” and other jargon borrowed from the social sciences
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

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