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Thread: Free Speech in the UK

  1. #1121
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    I have read that Versi-article on "Islamophobia", and it is a propaganda-piece. I see little or no actual substance in it. Again, I think that "Islamophobia" is just a construct and propaganda-tool (see post:1089). That said...

    Xenophobia is real, "Islamophobia" is not... And, there is a big difference between these two - the first, does not allow Muslims to play special victims - apart from everyone else - while the second, does just that and not much else - and that on ridiculous grounds. Xenophobia is real, and ironically enough it does not discriminate... It is totally valid and applicable on Muslims as well, no exceptions...

    What many (if not most) Muslims utterly fail (or possibly don't want) to recognize is that their traditions, customs, clothes and beliefs are (still) explicitly alien/foreign in most parts of Europe, Australia, Japan, South Korea and possibly even the USA (the "west" essentially). Once that simple truth is fully recognized - its not that strange anymore... It is xenophobia directed at the followers of a movement (Islam) that certainly can be categorized as both external, conspicuous, intrusive and aggressively expansive. Of course people in general will be bothered by it eventually! After all, it is usually the natives turf (regardless of religion/beliefs) that the Muslims are typically expanding on... What did you expect?!? That is human nature for you folks, little else! People are only willing to share (with strangers) - so far - before they get annoyed (or worse).

    Once we recognize all this, it is not that strange anymore...

    - A

  2. #1122
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Regarding the supposed concept of "Muslimness"...

    This concept stand out as especially stupid and absurd here. And from what I can tell, it even plays an integral part in "Islamophobia" or so they (APPG) would have us believe. The concept as such is defined as follows; "the quality of being Muslim". ...And? The notion is so utterly ridiculous that it takes a special level of stupid in order to cook up something like that. It is both pretentious and moronic at the same time - besides clearly lacking any substance or actual meaning...

    And, why do we have too stop there folks?!? Why not have some "Naziness" - the quality of being a Nazi? Some of that especially stylish blond hair, and tight and orderly SA-uniform to go! Some beautiful and athletic Heidi - ready to "heil" you to the stone-age - as she runs around in formation with her utterly "Naziness"-soaked friends Lisl and Beate! ...Or lets have some "Buddhistness" - the quality of being Buddhist? That's a special quality for you right there, right? Why? "Well because there is a special quality attached to being a Buddhist, you know!" How? "Well, umm you are special because you are a Buddhist, and that's a quality silly!?" So there is a certain undefined and elusive quality attached to you for just being Buddhist? Merely because you identify/profess yourself as a Buddhist? Is that it? "Yeah, that's it! I knew you would come around and understand in the end!"...

    Lets not forget... "Catholicness", "Liberalness", "Marxistness", "Satanistness", "Neo-Paganistness", "NewAgeistness", obviously "Protestantness" too! And the ever standing classic in these regards - "Atheistness"... Yup, it all makes as much sense as that fancy and elusive "Muslimness" would ever do... None...

    - A

  3. #1123

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Personally, I find all the talk of "bigotry" here in regards to Islam highly amusing.

    The hypocrisy on that note is absolute. After all, Islam have produced - and continues to produce - bigotry at world-class levels, all over the world essentially... With all that in mind, one would think it be more fitting if all advocates of Islam would take a (much) more humble posture in any discourse about "bigotry" - since Islam (with its track-record) is hardly in a position to lecture others on the subject. Otherwise, it is hypocrisy and arrogance in the extreme. That said, of course there are intolerance directed at Islam and its willing servants. It is to be expected with a movement of that size and with such a widespread presence across the world. It would be strange otherwise...

    - A
    The ironic part is that liberals who preach about "moderate islam" and how Western countries need to mass-import Muslims into their communities would be the first in line for chopping block, once their favorite demographic gets enough numbers and influence to dictate laws in societies.

  4. #1124
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-veil-row.html

    This is why the APPG Islamophobia definition must be scrapped. A doctor is facing the sack after he was accused of racism because he asked a Muslim woman to lift the veil on her burqa.

    Edit: It’s scary how correct the late great Christopher Hitchens was on all of this.

    Last edited by Aexodus; May 20, 2019 at 11:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  5. #1125

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-veil-row.html
    This is why the APPG Islamophobia definition must be scrapped. A doctor is facing the sack after he was accused of racism because he asked a Muslim woman to lift the veil on her burqa.
    Edit: It’s scary how correct the late great Christopher Hitchens was on all of this.
    That case has nothing to do with an Islamophobia definition.
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  6. #1126
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    The point I’m making is that he was accused of racism.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  7. #1127

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The point I’m making is that he was accused of racism.
    And?
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  8. #1128
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    And the APPG says that Islamophobia is racist.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  9. #1129

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    https://quillette.com/2019/05/20/ide...lues-a-review/

    Good article on the complete betrayal of liberal values by intellectual retards and how their acritical apology of Islam paved the way for radicalism in the West. Indeed free spech vs Islamophobia laws is a key example of the Islamo-liberal onslaught against the people of Europe.

  10. #1130

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    https://quillette.com/2019/05/20/ide...lues-a-review/

    Good article on the complete betrayal of liberal values by intellectual retards and how their acritical apology of Islam paved the way for radicalism in the West. Indeed free spech vs Islamophobia laws is a key example of the Islamo-liberal onslaught against the people of Europe.
    Well, Rumy Hasan is obviously an Islamophobic racist.

    There is something else going on, another layer which is not touched on in that review. I was affiliated with the Middle Eastern Studies department at the University of Washington due the fact that the Near Eastern Languages & Civilization program fell under its umbrella. At that time (and to this day I'm told), Saudi donors were quite generous supporters of the department, even going as far as purchasing (or funding the publication of) particular books and other educational materials for students so students wouldn't have to spend their own money. Meanwhile, everyone on the social sciences mailing lists were receiving free subscriptions to Saudi Aramco World magazine (now known simply as Aramco World). It was almost as if Saudi Armaco had access to all the student and faculty addresses for this purpose.

    I think it's fair to say that a lot of Westerners who have never been to the Middle East or North Africa have a one dimensionally negative view of the local cultures and daily life of the people, but if you were to only to read these materials kindly provided by Saudi donors and Saudi affiliated economic interests, you might have an equally one dimensional view of MENA countries as exotic colorful paradises which are in many ways more progressive than than racist Western countries. You might learn, for example, things like how American popular music has its roots in the Islamic call to prayer.

    I can't really fault the Saudis for trying to influence American public opinion. As I said in another thread, every country that has the means tries to influence American government and public opinion, it's just that the Saudis are particularly capable of doing so. The real fault is in the universities not dealing better with the conflict of interest. I believe that if you look into it, you will find similar influence on UK universities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  11. #1131

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    And the APPG says that Islamophobia is racist.
    So? OMG, they also use Latin letters... You need better associations. The example you're trying to use doesn't serve your position even a little bit. I guess you know it too since you're trying to be as vague as possible.
    The Armenian Issue

  12. #1132

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-veil-row.html

    This is why the APPG Islamophobia definition must be scrapped. A doctor is facing the sack after he was accused of racism because he asked a Muslim woman to lift the veil on her burqa.
    So far as I understand it, the definition in its current form has been rejected. Unfortunately the "progressive" incrementalists work ceaselessly.

    Edit: It’s scary how correct the late great Christopher Hitchens was on all of this.
    Hitchens was a magnificent orator, but his premonitions were hardly spectacular. It became reasonably apparent about fifteen years ago that the established powers in the Western world were prepared to prioritize their own political and financial interests above freedom of speech.
    Last edited by Cope; May 21, 2019 at 07:16 AM.



  13. #1133

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Well, Rumy Hasan is obviously an Islamophobic racist.

    There is something else going on, another layer which is not touched on in that review. I was affiliated with the Middle Eastern Studies department at the University of Washington due the fact that the Near Eastern Languages & Civilization program fell under its umbrella. At that time (and to this day I'm told), Saudi donors were quite generous supporters of the department, even going as far as purchasing (or funding the publication of) particular books and other educational materials for students so students wouldn't have to spend their own money. Meanwhile, everyone on the social sciences mailing lists were receiving free subscriptions to Saudi Aramco World magazine (now known simply as Aramco World). It was almost as if Saudi Armaco had access to all the student and faculty addresses for this purpose.

    I think it's fair to say that a lot of Westerners who have never been to the Middle East or North Africa have a one dimensionally negative view of the local cultures and daily life of the people, but if you were to only to read these materials kindly provided by Saudi donors and Saudi affiliated economic interests, you might have an equally one dimensional view of MENA countries as exotic colorful paradises which are in many ways more progressive than than racist Western countries. You might learn, for example, things like how American popular music has its roots in the Islamic call to prayer.

    I can't really fault the Saudis for trying to influence American public opinion. As I said in another thread, every country that has the means tries to influence American government and public opinion, it's just that the Saudis are particularly capable of doing so. The real fault is in the universities not dealing better with the conflict of interest. I believe that if you look into it, you will find similar influence on UK universities.
    That's absolutely true. A few years ago there was a major controversy about Gaddafi's son receivng a PHD from LSE after a substantial donation to their Middle East department, which was then caught with rather controversial material. Now Gaddafi is gone so the Saudis have less competition.

    A funny thing is that this happens regardless of who you vote. Trump before the election bashed the Saudis and Obama for not saying ''Islamic terrorism'', then he got his deal and he stick to the sentence ''radical Islamic terrorism'' (as if there's a non-radical Islamic terrorism?), but I guess that was what was agreed with the Saudis. Even Salvini in Italy used to bash Saudi influence more but has gone silent after some generous weapon purchase from the same area.

    Of course you'll never hear libs complaining about ''Saudi collusion'' so long that their universities also get their fair share.

  14. #1134
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    The ironic part is that liberals who preach about "moderate islam" and how Western countries need to mass-import Muslims into their communities would be the first in line for chopping block, once their favorite demographic gets enough numbers and influence to dictate laws in societies.
    Yup, the PC-crowd really are the useful idiots of our time....

    Another big irony is that "moderate Islam" as such, is not possible to begin with... It would be in conflict with the very premise of Islam itself, as we know it. "Moderation" in this context unquestionably means a sort of deviation from the intentions and ideas established and stated in the Quran (regardless the version we decide to use here). You can't moderate or change that... If you do, it is no longer "gods untarnished words" - and not only would that probably displease the "god" in question, but it would also obviously - by necessity - destroy the whole foundation of "gods untarnished words" altogether AND the entire claim of "we got it right - the Jews and Christians did not". So, it can not happen even if they (the Muslims) wanted too, otherwise Islam will fall apart. As a result, that path is closed for them, due to the way Islam is devised.

    I think the claim of "moderate Islam" is one of the great lies of our time. It certainly qualifies as a dishonest propaganda-ploy in order to make Islam seem somewhat less revolting to us. Of course, none of that "moderation" would ever survive or be accepted if traditional Islamic dogma were enforced. For instance, all self-professed (and I would argue self-deceiving) "secular Muslims" are mere heretics in the eyes of traditional Islam - and as a result they would probably face the same harsh treatment as the Jews and Christians can expect. That is, once the movement of Islam are strong enough to act unchallenged in any given area.

    All this connects to freedom of speech as well. It is obvious that freedom of speech is - and always will be - both a structural and natural enemy of Islam, as it affords and enables both criticism and questioning of the same. The very stuff that Islam does not afford or allows.

    - A

  15. #1135
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    A doctor is facing the sack after he was accused of racism because he asked a Muslim woman to lift the veil on her burqa.
    Personally, I think that anyone who thinks that it (ever) was a good idea to fanatically wear a veil (regardless the kind) everywhere they go, at every occasion, all day long - has seriously misunderstood how we "roll" in Europe. As a rule, we don't do or appreciate such stuff in Europe - this for a reason - we (typically) think it is stupid and ridiculous! Now, if "you" still want to be or even live here - then you adapt and follow suit - as simple as that. No buts, no excuses, no exceptions - that is just how it is going to be... Period.

    If this general rule and circumstance is somehow too demanding or offensive for someone with other ideas and traditions - then I suggest that they instantly "flee" to the nearest airplane and fly to wherever "veil-mania" are indeed appreciated and the established norm of the place - if veils are really that important for them. If it is Saudi Arabia - then "flee" yourself there then. I really don't care, nor should I have too... Imagine that...

    ***

    Now, I think it is utterly obscene that a doctor - who is merely trying help and do his job - is fired due to some arrogant Muslim who is either too proud to adapt or recognizing the fact that he is actually in the UK (and Europe) and not his damned homeland. It is outrageous that the authorities plays along with this kind of arrogance, and allow it to continue. Had it been up to me, I would have instead fired the entire GMC-board that actually allowed any of this to happen in the first place. And then I would have terminated their code/guidelines as well, and ordering them to draw up a new and sensible ones this time - without all that hyper-sensitive pandering rubbish about "religious dress and beliefs" that obviously enabled this travesty. And for good measure, I would have also deported the arrogant and complaining Muslims in question, to whatever sorry dunghill-nation they originally came from. But that's just me... Anyhow...

    Doctors and nurses commands respect for what they do... Arrogant and whining foreigners (including Muslim ones) with screwed up ideas, does not...


    - A
    ----------------
    Yup, Christopher Hitchens clearly was a brilliant man in many ways... He left us too soon, for sure.

  16. #1136
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    That was an interesting review on what seems to be an even more interesting book... Thanks for posting it.

    - A

  17. #1137
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Yup, the PC-crowd really are the useful idiots of our time....

    Another big irony is that "moderate Islam" as such, is not possible to begin with... It would be in conflict with the very premise of Islam itself, as we know it. "
    Yet millions of Muslims throughout the world live their lives everyday without forcing their religion onto others, calling for Sharia law, or attacking or harming people in anyway. Yet we are supposed to believe you, that all Muslims are radicals and not anyway compatible Western culture of Western-style rights and freedoms.

    And yet again, millions of Muslims have managed to do this from Europe to America. It ain't the so-called PC crowd thats the problem. Just really seems to be Europeans who have trouble living next to someone who could remotely be different than them. But then again most of Europe sucks at integrating immigrants anyways.

  18. #1138

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Yet millions of Muslims throughout the world live their lives everyday without forcing their religion onto others, calling for Sharia law, or attacking or harming people in anyway. Yet we are supposed to believe you, that all Muslims are radicals and not anyway compatible Western culture of Western-style rights and freedoms.
    Except that, you know, majority of Muslim countries are not moderate and have crazy religious laws.

  19. #1139

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Yet millions of Muslims throughout the world live their lives everyday without forcing their religion onto others, calling for Sharia law, or attacking or harming people in anyway. Yet we are supposed to believe you, that all Muslims are radicals and not anyway compatible Western culture of Western-style rights and freedoms.

    And yet again, millions of Muslims have managed to do this from Europe to America. It ain't the so-called PC crowd thats the problem. Just really seems to be Europeans who have trouble living next to someone who could remotely be different than them. But then again most of Europe sucks at integrating immigrants anyways.
    I don't know a single country where Muslims are in control where non Muslims are not treated like second class citizens. Those same millions of Muslims might not "force" their religions on others, but they would also not allow non Muslims to become judges, or captain of police, etc., in their country. And many would still impose Sharia law on others. It should be point out that Sharia law was created in medieval times, and however enlightened it may have been when first created, it iz hopelessly backwards and regressive by modern standards.


    Most the Muslim world is only a tolerant as some Sotuhern whites in the US South in the days of the Jim Crow laws before the Civil Rights movement. Most genuinely did not hatd blacks, and they were ok with blacks having their own churches, and schools, and everything was ok as long a African Americans sat at the back of the bus and a ceptdd their inferior status. Name a Muslim country where it is allowed for a non Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman, or where a Muslim is freely allowed to abandoned Islam and/or switch to some other religion of become an athiest without any legal consequences.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; May 22, 2019 at 03:45 AM.

  20. #1140

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I don't know a single country where Muslims are in control where nonn Muslims are not treated like second class citizens. Those same millions of Muslims might not "force" their religions on others, but they would also not allow non Muslims to become judges, or captain of police, etc., in their country. And many would still impose Sharia law on others. It should be point out that Sharia law was created in medieval times, and however enlightened it may have been when first created, it iz hopelessly backwards and regressive by modern standards.

    Most the Muslim world is only a tolerant as some Sotuhern whites in the US South in the days of the Jim Crow laws before the Civil Rights movement. They genuinely did not hatd blacks, and they were ok with blacks having their own churches, and schools, and everything was ok as long a African Americans sat at the back of the bus and a ceptdd their inferior status. Name a Muslim country where it is allowed for a non Muslim man to marry a Muslim woman, or where a Muslim is freely allowed to abandoned Islam and/or switch to some other religion of become an athiest without any legal consequences.
    Not a single one? Are you sure about that?
    The Armenian Issue

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