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Thread: Free Speech in the UK

  1. #161

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post

    Initially I have to challenge the idea that the neo-marxist view of race, as you might put it, as legitimate. I consider it very reductionist and it fails to consider other social factors for why minorities might not prosper in western societies beyond the existence of discrimination which purport to describe why 'systematic' disadvantages exist. This general development of shame in Europe over colonialism and disgraces over past views of race seem to have led to a race to the left (correct me if I'm wrong) where Europeans believe they should do what needs to be done to correct past wrongs.
    Let me correct you for you are indeed wrong, at least as far as the Britsh context is concerned.

    Prior to the 2nd World war Trade Unions did nothing to challenge racism at work, indeed their members more often took part in it. THerefore the Union movement was segregated along racial lines, for exampole the Coloured Seamen's Union and the Quite active Indian Worker's association.

    After the war labour shortages meant active recruitment from abroad, first Polish ex-servicemen and other Europeans, then British and Commonwealth citizens from India Pakistan and thenWest Indies.They were not welcomed by the left or the trade union movement . While the migrant workers did not threaten a single job because of acute labour shortages following the war, the TUC argued during the 1950's and 1960's that black workers did not integrate with white workers. Inded in 1969 the Trade Union Congress opposed anti -discrimination legislation.

    Throughout the 50's and 60s trade unions' preference was to, first, keep migrant workers out of the labour market,the colour bar second, keep them out of the union once colour bars became impractical , then illegal, and third, since many became union members, exclude them from the entitled union benefits. It was left to people outside the union movement to put things right

    . In Bristol for example a boycott was organised because of the refusal of the Bristol Omnibus Company, supported by the local Transport and General Workers Union (TGWU) branch, to employ Black or Asian bus crews. I would suggest the inflluence was more Rosa Parkes than Karl Marx.THe boycott had the support of promenent Labour politicians including Harold wilson, but not the relevant union , the Transport and General Workers Union, the racist sods.

    In May 1965, black workers went on strike at Courtauld's Red Scar Mill, Preston over the management's decision to force Asian workers to work more for less pay, White workers did bugger all. It wad these injustices, injustices that were actually created and sustained by the lefist unions to maintain the privileges of white workers, that led to the first race discrimination legislation.

    In May 1972, Pakistani workers in Crepe Sizes Ltd, Nottingham went on strike over working conditions, redundancies and pay. Initially there was no support from the TGWU, but a solidarity committee composed of wives, family, other Asian workers, community activists and the Black Peoples Freedom Movement forced the union to act.

    The dispute resulted in management agreeing to union recognition and the reinstatement of the workers that had been made redundant.In October 1972, a strike broke out at Mansfield Hosiery Mills in Loughborough where 500 Asian workers went on strike for higher wages and against the denial of promotion. The National Union of Hosiery and Knitwear Workers supported the wage demand but not the demand for promotion opportunities.

    Once again, a solidarity committee was formed from the community which forced the union into backing the strikers by organising an occupation of union offices. When strikes took place in Courtauld's Mill in Mansfield and E.E Jaffee in Nottingham in 1973, the Mansfield Hosiery Strike Committee was there to advise and support them.

    Despite some successes, trade union racism was an increasing problem which was demonstrated in 1974 when Asian workers (many of them women) went on strike at Imperial Typewriters in Leicester over racial discrimination and exploitation.

    The TGWU refused to back the strike and management colluded with the white workers and local union officials by enlisting the support of the National Front, who attacked strikers at the factory gates. Black strike committees from other disputes in the Midlands, community organisations, the IWA, Birmingham Sikh Temple, and the Birmingham Anti-Racist Committee raised money and supported the strikers who eventually won the dispute. ( Yes lefty trade unionists allied with fascists).

    THe union movement did not get it's act together until General Council at the 1978 TUC Congress, Ken Gill, Chair of the Race Relations Advisory Committee and General Secretary of the Technical, Administrative and Supervisory Staffs Union warning against racial prejudice within trade unions, saying that black workers would form their own trade unions if prejudice prevented them from being elected to union posts.

    And there you have it. I don't understand this myth of the removal of petty discrimination against black people being an aim of the British left,or at least the white element of it.They actively opposed integration and equality for their fellow comrades simply because of their race, and colluded with management to depress their employment prospects, pay and conditions for decades.


    If you want to see a (pisspoor) satire of those days, Spike Milligan in Curry and Chips is close enough.
    Last edited by mongrel; March 23, 2018 at 01:55 AM.
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  2. #162
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    ^That was 40 years ago. The left nowadays is one that promotes racial identity politics, take Diane Abbot, or when they hired Munroe Bergdorf.
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  3. #163

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Abbot is but one person, voted into office by popular mandate and there really are not that many people who have an interest in transgender politics.You need to do better than that.

    Does not take away from the fact that the left did nothing for black and asian people , it actively worked with bosses to discriminate against them until the law and constant industrial action by black union members prevented them from doing any more damage. Sun readers and working class Brexiteers/UKIPers are the last vestage of that element of the working class, just as black members groups in the unions and political parties are relics of a time when black labour had to organise itself against discriminination their own unions promoted.

    Perhaps this myth that the British left was the minorities' friend came from abroad with teh internetz.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by mongrel; March 23, 2018 at 02:41 AM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  4. #164
    Ygraine's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Chris View Post
    England is allowed to make a decision on who they let into the country, is it not?
    The people should be able to choose - not corrupt officials with underlying agendas.


    A little more on topic, I find this UK-attitude quite ironic because at the same time they have allowed entry to hundreds of imams who preach hatred openly. The more I see these double standards the more I feel that the so called "alt-right" has a point.

    We have a slightly similar situation in Sweden, where government sanctioned "internet watchdogs" go after for example elderly people who simply quote the quran when pointing out fallacies and how incompatible that religion is with our western values - but at the same time PC-politicians/officials post friendly photos on themselves where they shake hands with known extremist hate preachers who they welcome to our country.
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  5. #165

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    The people should be able to choose - not corrupt officials with underlying agendas.
    So what? Set a separate poll for every person at the border? Give the citizens the responsibility to vote a thousand times a day and if a persons vote isn't reached, sorry, you gotta wait in customs until tomorrow? Maybe you'll get to start your business trip or vacation then?

    You know how the fundamentals of a government for a country with a large population works right? Whatever the differences between those countries are, you do know this, don't you?
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  6. #166
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    So here's what happened in Luton, this is what it takes to get yourself banned for life from the UK:

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  7. #167
    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    The people should be able to choose - not corrupt officials with underlying agendas.


    A little more on topic, I find this UK-attitude quite ironic because at the same time they have allowed entry to hundreds of imams who preach hatred openly. The more I see these double standards the more I feel that the so called "alt-right" has a point.
    I think though another perspective would be that your acting as if the two things are independent of one another in regards to the UK context (I'm not informed enough to speak on Swedish affairs alas). The solidifying of legislation in regard to 'hate speech' and its increase in parameters was entirely due to the issues in the early 2000s of Iman's and radicals openly preaching hatred (and technically acting in a 'grey area' regarding the law). Which naturally a fair few people found incredibly distasteful- as you yourself have said here. The issue being with the clamp down on this is that the UK and generally 'western states' over the last few decades avoid creating legislation which openly penalizes one specific group due to various factors such as history, electoral feeling, social stability, international reputation and the basic 'tenants' of a democratic state to name a few.

    This means that 'hate speech' to stop such things was expanded to include new areas and that has as we have seen now penalized both left and right, muslim, atheist, christian etc. The flip side is that in the UK you no longer get Iman's preaching publicly 'hatred' without fear of the law. So what i'm saying is essentially you can't have one without the other, and there are always consequences to increasing the powers of the law to combat specific threats- because the powers are always created and implemented and indeed interpreted in a general way as they can never be 'specific' but by necessity are broad- allowing for both serious and controversial statements from all parties to potentially fall under them.

    You either have free-speech and indeed allow 'whacko's' and people with viewpoints we ourselves find horrific to say disparaging things about the west and spread hatred, and at the same time allow for the radicals on the right and left to also do the same about other issues- or you opt for as the UK did 'social stability' by curtailing it all. Its not a one or other scenario- and structurally never can be for a state which espouses 'western' values. I find it interesting (Though have yet to decide if its a 'that's bad' or is something truly serious) that from the outset of terrorist activity (of any kind) the 'west' is always assured 'we will not let them change us- western society is open and will always be so etc etc'- but the reality is, that yes it does change things- people sacrifice freedoms and privacy they had before in return for the promise of greater security- and like you've argued here essentially, are happy when one is dealt with, but when the same power is used to prevent expression in other areas, are (rightfully) annoyed and complain. Overall the 'War on Terror' has fundamentally changed western society in a way that seeps into other areas actively (though equal application of laws created to combat specific issues within that context) or passively (In legitimizing an already growing culture where privacy is a commodity not a right- data sharing etc and one that has increasingly been invaded by states and private bodies).
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; March 23, 2018 at 11:09 AM.
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  8. #168

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    ^That was 40 years ago. The left nowadays is one that promotes racial identity politics, take Diane Abbot, or when they hired Munroe Bergdorf.
    Indeed. Despite all the accusation against modern nationalists, the overwhelming majority of them have a rather civic view on the issue. Then we look at people who generally position themselves as "antifascists" that accuse the former of "racism" and they turn out to be actual racists who believe in racist concepts such as "white privilege".

  9. #169

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygraine View Post
    The people should be able to choose - not corrupt officials with underlying agendas.


    A little more on topic, I find this UK-attitude quite ironic because at the same time they have allowed entry to hundreds of imams who preach hatred openly. The more I see these double standards the more I feel that the so called "alt-right" has a point.

    We have a slightly similar situation in Sweden, where government sanctioned "internet watchdogs" go after for example elderly people who simply quote the quran when pointing out fallacies and how incompatible that religion is with our western values - but at the same time PC-politicians/officials post friendly photos on themselves where they shake hands with known extremist hate preachers who they welcome to our country.
    The people aren't foreign Nazi sympatisers. Let the government do it's job in sweeping up dodgy foreigners. Britain was slack in the past and paid the price in having to deal with terrorism and extremism as a result.

    Dante Von Hespburg has , and not for the first time, explained in the most excellent and repworthy way how important these laws are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Nazibabe video
    Well some foreigner turns up, locals recognise the blatant religious harassment and the the Police ask her to stop. Hardly remarkable.
    Last edited by mongrel; March 23, 2018 at 12:56 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  10. #170

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Let me correct you for you are indeed wrong, at least as far as the Britsh context is concerned.*snip*
    So then something of a British equivalent to a southern strategy must have come to fruition in the 80s/90s which would explain the rise of SJW-esque leftist ideology?

  11. #171

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Séverus Sñape View Post
    So then something of a British equivalent to a southern strategy must have come to fruition in the 80s/90s which would explain the rise of SJW-esque leftist ideology?
    No not really.Britain never had affirmatiive action, or the like, except for all women MP lists. From the aftermath, and this is a personal view, the political group gaining the most from the aftermath were the managerial/business class and oddly enough women. This is because, the race relations and equal pay laws, combined with industrial relations laws helped to break the power of the unions, so that bosses were free to employ who they liked pay what they like for whatever job and pay grade.

    This SJW ideology you speak of is a construct. You may find, for the most part, that it is the corporate , managerial types who promote diversity and equality, not "left"and I understand why, given what they had to put up with during the 50s , 60s and 70s, of course it is better way of working. I referred you to tha distasteful dcommedy Curry and Chips. That is what it was really like back then.

    Increasing numbers of women in the workforce destroyed the old union order. Because of the view that working women posed a (pe threat to societal order and to the structure of the trade union movement, trade unions’ continuous lack of engagement with women workers almost threatened the very existence of the movement because Thastcherism destroyed traditionally male industrial jobs whilst genering service sector jobs which attracted female workers. Cynics might say that was the aim.

    The only equality issue I can recall emerging from the Blair/Cameron era was increased acceptance of the gay community, which went backwards in the 80's following the AIDs scare.
    Last edited by mongrel; March 23, 2018 at 01:35 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  12. #172
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Well some foreigner turns up, locals recognise the blatant religious harassment and the the Police ask her to stop. Hardly remarkable.

    "foreigner" = fellow commonwealth citizen
    "locals" = ummat al-Islamiyah, the Islamic Community
    "religious harassment" = promoting lgbt rights
    "ask her to stop" = gets barred from the country for life

    "Nazibabe " = Nazism. another word you do not know what it means.


  13. #173

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post

    "foreigner" = fellow commonwealth citizen
    "locals" = ummat al-Islamiyah, the Islamic Community
    "religious harassment" = promoting lgbt rights
    "ask her to stop" = gets barred from the country for life

    "Nazibabe " = Nazism. another word you do not know what it means.

    Get it right. Britons are commonwealth citizens too, as is Nazibabe. She is unarguably not given leave to remain in the UK, the population of Luton unless there is evidence to the contrary obviously do have that right.

    Locals. If they live in Luton they are local. Tommy Robinson lived in Luton and or the nearest prison. He ain't Muslim

    I fail to see how one can promote LGBT rights which is entirely in the gift of Her Majesty's government, by use of religious harassment against passers by who have no power to do things. Why not Westminster? Besides the only known sexual encounter, if that is what you can call it , the Almighty could arguably had is that with Mary mom of Jesus, a female, although Asherah, Queen of Heaven, is linked with Him. So no , has nothing to with LGBT rights. Does she mix with people like Gok Wan or Peter Thatchell, no just the ex-BNP football hooligan and fraud known as Tommy Robinson and a freind of the serial racial harrasers of Britain First. Show me a picture of her campaigning for a genuine LGBT group.

    The people of Luton didn't ban her from the country. The police did.Any more lies of yours to burst?

    Racists love Nazibabe. She used to beg money from them on Patreon until a change of policy meant she is forced to work a little harder to shake money out of racist pockets. Like stripping for odious old men, it is not the most ideal way for a woman to make a living , but I suppose some people have no pride.
    Last edited by mongrel; March 23, 2018 at 03:11 PM.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  14. #174
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    If anything this thread underlines that the UK has absolute freedom of expression but it restricts any form of freedom of thought.
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  15. #175

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    If anything this thread underlines that the UK has absolute freedom of expression but it restricts any form of freedom of thought.
    It is to what end such thoughts are expressed that's the issue.
    Absolutley Barking, Mudpit Mutt Former Patron: Garbarsardar

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  16. #176
    Mithradates's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Get it right. Britons are commonwealth citizens too, as is Nazibabe. She is unarguably not given leave to remain in the UK, the population of Luton unless there is evidence to the contrary obviously do have that right.

    Locals. If they live in Luton they are local. Tommy Robinson lived in Luton and or the nearest prison. He ain't Muslim

    I fail to see how one can promote LGBT rights which is entirely in the gift of Her Majesty's government, by use of religious harassment against passers by who have no power to do things. Why not Westminster? Besides the only known sexual encounter, if that is what you can call it , the Almighty could arguably had is that with Mary mom of Jesus, a female, although Asherah, Queen of Heaven, is linked with Him. So no , has nothing to with LGBT rights. Does she mix with people like Gok Wan or Peter Thatchell, no just the ex-BNP football hooligan and fraud known as Tommy Robinson and a freind of the serial racial harrasers of Britain First. Show me a picture of her campaigning for a genuine LGBT group.

    The people of Luton didn't ban her from the country. The police did.Any more lies of yours to burst?

    Racists love Nazibabe. She used to beg money from them on Patreon until a change of policy meant she is forced to work a little harder to shake money out of racist pockets. Like stripping for odious old men, it is not the most ideal way for a woman to make a living , but I suppose some people have no pride.
    Nazibabe, huh? lol


    "Does she mix with people like Gok Wan or Peter Thatchell"
    You tell me hahaha


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    HAHAHAHA

  17. #177
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    well, theryn meyer no longer hangs out with the alt-right, so i guess theres hope for people yet.

  18. #178

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    If you criticize people who worship prophet Muhammad (mockery and disrespectful cartoons be upon him) who was basically a Hitler of his time and promoted hatred towards non-Muslims, gays and women, then you are a "nazi". I guess whole population of the world are Nazis except for antifa, ISIS, and other similar groups.

  19. #179

    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Nazibabe, huh? lol



    You tell me hahaha


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    HAHAHAHA
    Individual behavior does not disprove a person's political views. Human beings are perfectly capable of holding conflict views, or having a coherent political platform while being total hypocrites. Case-in-point, Republicans who have numerous allegations of child molestation, homosexuality, or marriage infidelity. That doesn't make Republicans "not homophobes" it makes them look like homophobe hypocrites who project their own anti-gay views while simultaneously being closet homosexuals. It looks worse actually.

    Now I don't know enough about Lauren Southern to make my own judgement, but suffice to say, her having personal relationships with people of color, homosexuals, etc does not mean she can't support discriminatory views.

    I'll point to myself as a case study. I have stated before on this Forum that I am homophobic. That hasn't changed and I recognize this as a personal flaw, I'm also a supporter of LGBT rights. That doesn't mean I don't find gay men to be... a little repulsive. It's a product of my post-Soviet conditioning unfortunately.

  20. #180
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Free Speech in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Individual behavior does not disprove a person's political views. Human beings are It'sd called perfectly capable of holding conflict views, or having a coherent political platform while being total hypocrites.
    It's called "human weakness", because we are after all basically hairless apes who emerged out of africa from homo erectus to our modern state that is basically an ape's self-built prison.
    Last edited by swabian; March 23, 2018 at 05:58 PM.

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