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Thread: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

  1. #501

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    @Alberdo: Frankly my boy, you seriously lack modesty in exposing us medieval images with your unique interpretation.


    - The famous "ventail" on the Norman hauberts are subject to interpretations and some historians have assumed that it was used to thread the hauberk because it is indeed often placed too low on the original drawings. So these illustrations are not necessarily wrong.


    - At first glance, I do not see any notorious error on this Osprey board. Bacinets are helmets that were worn throughout the second half of the 14th century and the variety of these is such that it is difficult to be exhaustive on a single illustration board. I am curious to know what you found as errors ...


    - The observation of the images of the Middle Ages only allows to have a vague idea of ​​the costumes. The drawings of the time had very little descriptive purpose or ambition to convey a realistic vision. The bayeux tapestry is one example. How to know with these naive drawings of what their armor was really made? Your "Look at the Bayeux tapestry, man." is ridiculous.
    The last interpretation of the contemporary artist is undoubtedly questionable, but absolutely not laughable in my opinion.
    There is no absolute truth about medieval costumes, just cross interpretations of texts, ancient illustrations and archaeological finds.


    I think you are trying to impress us with your knowledge when you don't know much. Besides, you are not even in a position to advise me the slightest book on the subject. This is fun!
    There are already many sources like this, which show that ventail being worn both up and down.

    If you don't see errors in Osprey illustrations, does not mean that they don't exist. Quite missed there, bascinet is ok on that illustration. There is some explaining to do, but in short, the breastplate is wrong. Here, listen to experienced people on this, much better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2oTy6dYPPE

    Yes, observation of images of middle ages allows vague ideas, but that is why people graduate in history to make scientific research. Bayeux tapestry as just one example is worthless information. Good thing we have tons of other images, which portray normans and people, who study them. Your opinion that its just interpretation of one single image, while in reality, many sources are studied to root out common ideas of the different artists from different areas, who did different forms of art, be it illumination, sculpture or anything else. When i say "look at the Bayeux tapestry, man", i mean that you should look to many artistic examples as possible. In that context, i told him to check the shields in Bayeux tapestry and look for metal-rimmed shields. If he doubts it, he should look into other sources and the facts are irrefutable, the rims were either leather or paint.

    Not trying to impress anyone. Just trying to warn you to not take random images, posted by people like j.a.luna as granted. If that offends you, i am sorry.

  2. #502

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    "The famous "ventail" on the Norman hauberts are subject to interpretations and some historians have assumed that it was used to thread the hauberk because it is indeed often placed too low on the original drawings"


    Like where? The square ventail is always beneath the neck. Its not placed lower on original art.

  3. #503
    kostic's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    I am not an English speaker. I would need a video in French.


    In fact, what annoys me is when people laugh at my job.


    Of course I don't know everything, I also think I am using somewhat outdated sources, just as there is, as in any historical reconstruction, an important part of personal interpretation with a forced labor of imagination.
    If there are any errors, please report them to me with tact and relativism.
    I don't remember who laughed at my "macemen" unit, both for my costume choices and for their weapons. He was probably right to point out to me that in the 12th century the masses were generally much more basic. Perhaps also that the leather broignes are a bad interpretation of the images of the time and that they no longer have their place among the historians of the costume today.
    But these words were insulting.
    His comments did not take into account the large number of units that I personally took the time to remake to improve the credibility of the game. He did not take into account the fact that I did it out of passion, for free, just because I love the Middle Ages and have always wanted to change the original M2TW visual by first correcting the biggest anachronisms for the 12th century.


    Another thing: my work seeks above all to improve the overall vision of the game (units in particular)
    The focus on details seems sterile to me because the most important is the general appearance of the armies before the small details on the costumes and the weapons.


    Here. I will still take everything that has been said into account because I don't want to make big mistakes ...

  4. #504

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Personally, I think you're doing just fine, Kostic. There are many nuances and you've done well showing a representation of medieval arms and armor through the ages. There is the possibility of being too meticulous.

    I understand why people may be critical of osprey and other modern reconstructions, but it's impossible to be perfect.

    We can accept we don't know everything and strive to be immersive without upsetting most people.

    Really, you're doing fine Kostic. But there is no harm in what Alberdo has said. In my opinion, you may proceed with the units as you will. Unless you build a time machine and go take some pictures I really couldn't give less of a about the petite details

  5. #505
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Come on, @kostic. Your units are the main reason people play this mod. Your work is hugely appreciated!

  6. #506

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I am not an English speaker. I would need a video in French.


    In fact, what annoys me is when people laugh at my job.




    Of course I don't know everything, I also think I am using somewhat outdated sources, just as there is, as in any historical reconstruction, an important part of personal interpretation with a forced labor of imagination.
    If there are any errors, please report them to me with tact and relativism.
    I don't remember who laughed at my "macemen" unit, both for my costume choices and for their weapons. He was probably right to point out to me that in the 12th century the masses were generally much more basic. Perhaps also that the leather broignes are a bad interpretation of the images of the time and that they no longer have their place among the historians of the costume today.
    But these words were insulting.
    His comments did not take into account the large number of units that I personally took the time to remake to improve the credibility of the game. He did not take into account the fact that I did it out of passion, for free, just because I love the Middle Ages and have always wanted to change the original M2TW visual by first correcting the biggest anachronisms for the 12th century.


    Another thing: my work seeks above all to improve the overall vision of the game (units in particular)
    The focus on details seems sterile to me because the most important is the general appearance of the armies before the small details on the costumes and the weapons.


    Here. I will still take everything that has been said into account because I don't want to make big mistakes ...
    I understand that we have a language barrier here. Neither you, nor me are english speakers. Nobody is laughing at your job, but modern illustrations like Grbasic's norman knight are funny. If you copied it, it would not be funny, because like i said, its not your faul, but those of who influenced you.

    Back to Osprey. If you already bought the illustration books, that is much better than using random Osprey immages from internet, so you're doing fine. I bet the books have references and you can check them yourself if they are correct, or not. For starters, if the Osprey illustrations show anything non-european or orthodox, be very aware. Illustrators like Angus Mcbride or D'amato did some awful art, don't even look at those. Best illustrator of Osprey books is Graham Turner, but still not perfect. That 14th century knight image i posted may be also made by Graham Turner, but i might be wrong, because people, who post these images, never credit the artists. Its just that the style looks like that of Graham's and some common mistakes he does. Because of this, lets get back to analyzing that image. I will try to be as simple as possible, because of the language barrier. I can show primarily with images, so it will be easier to understand.

    First of all, the shape of the breastplate. I know that for us modern humans it looks unmanly, but the correct shape of it would be that of a hourglass, it was the style of that day.

    As you can see, artist may have copied modern armor that is cheap and poor quality, rather than originals. Originals have that distinct hourglass shape.

    As you can see here, the problem with this painting is that its copying MET harness, made by Bashford Dean. This breastplate was made by him from real pieces of coat of plates, but they did not match. He needed badly to be able to display armor from that era, so he kind of built it up from scrap. The main problem with this is that vertical plates in fauld do not give you flexibility of movement. With this armor, you would not be able to sit down, because the fauld is fixed in place, its really non-functional breastplate. As you can see, all this does not stop people from copying it.

    This is how breastplate faulds of late 14th century function. Their plates are horizontal, not vertical and overlap each other to the point, where they can compress, when sitting down or leaning, regardless of breastplate being covered or not.

    Also, this style of coat of plates is out of place. Late 14th century knight wouldn't use it. These coat of plates are late 13th, early 14th century and were used by militia in battle of Visby.

  7. #507

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    I don't remember who laughed at my "macemen" unit, both for my costume choices and for their weapons. He was probably right to point out to me that in the 12th century the masses were generally much more basic. Perhaps also that the leather broignes are a bad interpretation of the images of the time and that they no longer have their place among the historians of the costume today.

    One armor is a copy from that norman knight, i see. Other armor is copied from the manuscript. The text translates into "trapped in the net of sin". Its not armor, its a net, the guy is cought in a net.

  8. #508

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    I have asked people, who speak french about broigne. It seems that some historians think that broigne means rings that are sewn onto leather, because for example, Bayeux tapestry shows circular patterns of armor. We know that its maille not, of course. Broigne is one of the french words for maille. It is a derivative of norse brynja. French broigne, russian brania, latvian brunas are all derivatines of brynja, which means maille shirt or hauberk. I don't know why would anyone have problem with macemen unit in particular. Same armor models are used on units such as: norman_knights, spearmen_ug1, light swordsmen_ug1, dismounted_sicilian_knights, mercenary_crossbowmen.

  9. #509

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Sir, before all, let me say that, as someone mostly ignorant about historical accuracy of the aforementioned aspects, I'm impressed with the depiction of your knowledge on details. Nevertheless I think you're missing the point, by asking things like certain work being a joke, you're just assuming it is without reason to: The mod may say anything in its description, that it could say that it would aim to give even the best possible depiction of the arms, armor and clothing of the middle ages, but scientific knowledge on these sort of topics is a professional endevour, I see nobody here claiming to be an actual historian or anything, just probably enthusiasts modding one of their favourite games. Of course, everyone may try to be historically accurate in the discussions and comment on it seriously, but if you are able to see someone is even totally wrong, there is still no place for demands, because these guys have no obligation, first I don't see any of them claiming to be professionals, neither within science nor art, and second it still doesn't even make sense to demand anything because they're just not paid. So if you're that better on history, I suggest you to simply point mistakes and contribute, without giving them reasons to get offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Come on, @kostic. Your units are the main reason people play this mod. Your work is hugely appreciated!
    Also, as an average fan who loved KCC, but also thought the armor with the "net" and the leather one seemed strange, yes @Kostic, your work is hugely appreciated, and aesthetically a step forward.
    Last edited by Sindathar; June 19, 2021 at 04:22 AM.

  10. #510

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindathar View Post
    Sir, before all, let me say that, as someone mostly ignorant about historical accuracy of the aforementioned aspects, I'm impressed with the depiction of your knowledge on details. Nevertheless I think you're missing the point, by asking things like certain work being a joke, you're just assuming it is without reason to: The mod may say anything in its description, that it could say that it would aim to give even the best possible depiction of the arms, armor and clothing of the middle ages, but scientific knowledge on these sort of topics is a professional endevour, I see nobody here claiming to be an actual historian or anything, just probably enthusiasts modding one of their favourite games. Of course, everyone may try to be historically accurate in the discussions and comment on it seriously, but if you are able to see someone is even totally wrong, there is still no place for demands, because these guys have no obligation, first I don't see any of them claiming to be professionals, neither within science nor art, and second it still doesn't even make sense to demand anything because they're just not paid. So if you're that better on history, I suggest you to simply point mistakes and contribute, without giving them reasons to get offended.



    Also, as an average fan who loved KCC, but also thought the armor with the "net" and the leather one seemed strange, yes @Kostic, your work is hugely appreciated, and aesthetically a step forward.
    Who is demanding something? Is it me? I did not demand changes to be made anywhere. I just pointed out that some information from this thread is wrong. "So if you're that better on history, I suggest you to simply point mistakes and contribute, without giving them reasons to get offended" - Isn't that what i did? I pointed out the mistakes, that's it. Getting offended is someone's personal issue. I am not against anyone personally here. Even when i say that j.a.luna should stop posting misinformation, it is nothing personal, its related to the subject of his posts, not his personality.

  11. #511
    kostic's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Thank you Jurand, thank you Cephalophore, thank you Sindathar for your support !!!

    I think indeed that the historical precision of the costumes will never be absolutely reliable and that to decry the artists who made us dream "Angus Mcbride or D'amato did some awful art" is a little easy and not very respectful.


    My main sources come from this book printed in 1983 by casterman editions: The costume, armor and weapons at the time of knighthood by Liliane and Fred Funcken.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    It is a very serious book interested in the various theories in force at the time and illustrated many plates of which I put in photo the page concerning the dating of the first helmets with fixed visor. It seems unlikely to me that the dating of these helmets was made based on drawings from the 19th century.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Therefore, I don't see what is so laughable about this warrior's interpretation of a 12th century Norman warrior. It might not be the most common piece of equipment, but why not?



    The broigne, according to my sources, is a military garment (brunia in Latin) which is mentioned first in the capitulars of Charlemagne in 779.
    It has taken various forms and consists in fact of integrating pieces of metal on a leather or fabric garment. It was worn in the 9th century by the richest.
    Another name for chain mail is broigne treslie. According to my book, this chainmail was reserved for elite men at arms in the 11th century ... but our game begins in 1132.

    Once again, if you have an illustrated book that is serious enough in your eyes to advise me, I am interested.


    I want to give SSHIP a credible and logical aspect for a better immersion in the battles while respecting the historical credibility of the costumes and the weapons, at least for the 12th century which is the starting point of the campaigns.
    Last edited by kostic; June 19, 2021 at 05:11 AM.

  12. #512
    Nemesis2345's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Even you said Kostic we cant be sure the exact outfits as we didnt live in that period hahahaha

    I think you are getting to riled up for nothing , i wouldnt put anything to anyone laughing at modders for doing their hobby with passion.

    I personally appreciate every modder no matter how small / random his work is , i even appreciate the work of the Planet Wars mod for example , which is a giant meme mod lol. But thats work made by someone for free so who cares !

    Dont give up , as your units are still top tier and much more historical than whatever CA ever tried to do.

  13. #513

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    The costume, armor and weapons at the time of knighthood by Liliane and Fred Funcken is not a very serious book, from what i can see. Yes, the datings of the on the helmets in that page are not based on 19th century drawings. They are based on original art, but the art itself is wrongly dated. Does the book have any sources of the image inspirations?

    Just check here how correct the book is on the dating. These are not all the helmets from the page, it was hard to find out what inspired the book, but here are some of the original sources of it i found and they do not add up with the book.

    1: Hortus Delicarium maybe? 1180 Germany. If not Hortus Delicarium, then Lyngsjo churt relief in Sweden, 1195. Here is both of them Book dates this 1100. Wrong dating in book.
    2: Already went through this. William Clito effigy is roughly from 1180, not 1120. Wrong dating in book.
    5 and 6:Ms. Germ. vol. 282, f. 50r, somewhere between 1215-1230 Germany.
    Book dates this 1200. Not that far away, but still wrong.

    The rest of the helmets are mishapen. I would need to know what kind of sources book claims for them, but now i have no comment. Searching for originals was hard.


    Can i have your sources about broigne? I know people, who are into history and can translate this from french to english.

  14. #514

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    I have found this article, which talks about Meyrick and Viollet-le-duc, who researched armor back in 19th century. Armors such as ring mail or broigne are completely made up by them, its just failing to interpret Bayeux tapestry. We now know that armor in Bayeux tapestry is maille, except for Odo bishop. Here is the article https://arador.com/armour/chain-mail/
    Seems that there are no original sources that describe how broigne is constructed. It is mentioned, but it probably means maille or armor in general, just like in any other language that has this word.

    Example of original source, mentining broigne. This is just mentioning what seems to be maille with gambeson on top.
    Couronnement de Louis, L. 20, ll.640-642
    Quatorze roi armerent l'aversier
    El dos li vestent une broigne d'acier
    Desus la broigne .i. blanc hauberc doblier


    (Fourteen kings armed the adversary
    On his back the placed a steel byrnie
    Over the byrnie, 1 white double-hauberk)

    Also, here is an article on what is Odo bishop supposed to wear. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...1D3BBA60072428

  15. #515
    kostic's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    The articles are interesting. They also show the extent of the assumptions. Caution is to say nothing. The margins remain open enough to warrant interpretations as above, in my opinion.


    In my book, the authors do not subscribe to the theory of generalized chain mail for the Battle of Hasting. With other researchers, like F. Wilkinson, they consider this theory too simplistic.
    The date of the source, whether written or sculpted, is not proof that this type of element, helmet or armor, was not already present several decades earlier. Archeology could have suggested to the authors of my book this type of interpretation and I am not a historian to judge their relevance.
    Their book begins by explaining where their sources come from on 5 pages. It is based on several works by historians or archaeologists such as (in bulk) Philippe Truttmann, Charles and François Buttin, Charles Martin, Vesey Norman, Stephen V. Grancsay, Ewart Oakeshott ...


    The book consists of 156 pages, nearly half of which are pages of detailed and annotated illustrations. Unfortunately, I haven't found a more recent, more erudite and more complete book on the subject yet.
    Last edited by kostic; June 19, 2021 at 10:02 AM.

  16. #516
    kostic's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Concerning the treslie broigne, another of my books (Weapons & Armors V-XV by C. Gilliot Hermann historica's highlights) speaks of a leather coat on which are crossed leather straps ...

    As I wrote above, the authors of my book noted for the first time the word broigne (brunia in Latin) in a capitular of Charlemagne (ordinances written in chapters) dated 779


    For the rest, you can also consult its definition on Wikipedia. What is more or less certain is that there have always been other types of protection than that of the chainmail. Broigne, gambeson, Jacques ... the man did not lack imagination to ensure his bodily protection.
    Last edited by kostic; June 20, 2021 at 06:15 AM.

  17. #517

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    If anyone has a primary source, where it is described what broigne is, i'd be happy to see it. As for now, it is considered old academic knowledge from 1900s. Right now, broigne just means byrnie.

  18. #518

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlberdoBalsam View Post
    If anyone has a primary source, where it is described what broigne is, i'd be happy to see it. As for now, it is considered old academic knowledge from 1900s. Right now, broigne just means byrnie.
    There aren't scientific sources, except the ones from the 19th and early 20th century which are doubted by todays historians due to a lack of evidence. There are a different kind of source: old germanic (norse and german) sagas where the broigne, or Brünne in german, are mentioned. These sagas are from the 7th/8th, 9th and 10th century - the Beowulflied, Hildebrandtslied and Waltherslied. In these sagas, they describe them simply as armless chain mail or ring armor, antoher german name is Stahlrock wich would be tunica ahena in latin. In german its more a term for this kind of armor rather than a specific armor and the french name comes from the frankish version, which is old germanic.

    Another aspect is that illustrations in books from the medieval times are no real source because illustrators back then used samples from manual like books as templates. At least its the reason why modern science doubt that the people in the 19th and early 20th centuries made the right conclusions.

  19. #519

    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Now that we cleared up that broigne just means maille, lets talk about something else.

    Almoghavars.

    Have a read of this http://warfare.tk/WRG/Middle_Ages_2-58-Almughavar.htm
    Its written that at least in 1300s balkans, they did not wear any armor at all and did not use shields. There are hints of armor elements, but not much. Keep in mind that the gear of almoghavars changed with time, but this is the information we have.

    It is written that they wore "an iron network worn on the head like a helmet". Its just a written source without any explanation with images, so we must figure out ourselves what this means. 17th century historian Francisco de Moncada thinks that this would mean they wore a mail coif of some sorts, its the most logical explanation.
    Interpretations like this are not backed with archaeology. There are 0 archaeological findings like this that can be attributed to almoghavars.
    "An IRON NETWORK worn on the head like a helmet" is most likely this

    When it is written that they wore leather leggings, it is more believable that they wore something like medieval hose like on the right, rather than some dungeons and dragons leg wraps like on the left.



    About adarga.

    It could not have been used by almoghavars, because they did not use shields in 14th century at least. Adarga was adopted by the spanish somewhere in late 14th century. Before that, when adarga is depicted in Iberian-related art, its worn by muslim andalusians.

    Also, it is written here that this is moorish warrior from Andalusia in 1212. That can't be true. First of all, adarga was not used that early there. Round shields with tasselets are sometimes depicted, but not this bivavle adarga. Second, that shield in image is steel adarga, which is based on one from Metropolital Museum of Art, which is dated to 1500. Thats about 300 years wrongly dated. Earlier adargas were not made out of steel.



    In the end, here is fresco from Saló del Tinell, built by King Peter IV in 1359–1362. It is high possibility that this shows almoghavars.
    Even though they don't have shields, it looks like they are wearing various head protection, which might be padding, maybe even covered with leather. Some of them have painted helmets, which could be made out of steel or even leather, which are depicted and found in early 14th century Granada. I seems that they are weaaring mostly tunics, but who knows, maybe some are thicker or padded, because their necks seem kind of thick. One guy might be even wearing gambeson.


    If anyone is interested, here are the knights from the same fresco. Looks pretty standart for early to mid 14th century.

  20. #520
    kostic's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Release]KCC (Kostic Chronology Costumes)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlberdoBalsam View Post
    Now that we cleared up that broigne just means maille, lets talk about something else.
    Not at all !
    You read it wrong. "Broigne" has several meanings and I do not subscribe to this idea which assumes that all protections were made of chain mail.


    Some of your contributions are interesting, but stop believing yourself to be omniscient, you are not !
    Historians and enthusiasts of soldiers from the Middle Ages do not always agree on the interpretation of the texts and even less of the images.


    There are no certainties on many points and the imagination is obligatory to redo these sodates of the past. Either way, we'll never be able to satisfy everyone, especially if we're looking for the absolute truth.


    Try to be a little more open and tolerant when you bring up the results of your research. Thank you.

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