Musketeers and Tercios

[Blingerman]

Well, first of all I love your mod and I think is the best one of all. But I don´t like the way you have nerfed the gunpowder units and the bump for longbow archers. Musketeers are in vanilla game a bit overpowered but that is the way it should be. Spanish armies won a lot of battles and became the first great empire thanks to the new tactics of musketeers+pikemen (Tercios). Tercios should be as strong as aventuros too, in vanilla they were more cost efficient but in your mod the adventage is lost as they are more expensive. In the game from a balance point of view this was the only great advantage Spain had as a faction. If we nerf the musketeers then they have nothing but conquerors that can only be made in America. I love the way you have changed the balance of game overall but Spain has lost the late era bump they had. They are very weak at the start of the game in units and portuguese´s armies are far better the whole game which is ahistoric although that is a vanilla problem. Could you take out Navarre from Portuguese hands in next version plz?

[Lusted]

Portugal needs Navarre or it will not do anything.

I've nerfed the gunpowder units as they are far too unrealistic and overpowered in normal M2Tw. Gunpowder wepaons were nowhere near as powerful as they are shown in M2Tw.

[Blingerman]

Yes but what is the point in building archebusiers for instance as England if you have so powerful archers? or even pavise xbowmen are better in stats and overall in a cost effective way. I have not gone so far in campaign but I could guess that AI is not going to build any gunpowder units at all for that.
In other order could you do Tercios similar to aventuros or even a bit better I know I can do it for myself but I want to have the modder support.
I know if Navarre is not Portuguese they are damned, could you add perhaps more regions in Iberia as they are very needed?

[Lusted]

Yes but what is the point in building archebusiers for instance as England if you have so powerful archers? or even pavise xbowmen are better in stats and overall in a cost effective way.

Aquebusiers have a frigthen troops ability i believe, and even though they have a low attack are still very effective.

And never judge a units abilities on its stats, stats in M2Tw are very misleading.

In other order could you do Tercios similar to aventuros or even a bit better I know I can do it for myself but I want to have the modder support.

Terico's aren't that much weaker than Aventuros.

[Blingerman]

Yes but as edited, perhaps AI is not going to build gunpowder units in campaign.
Yeah tercios are not much weaker but they are, and they were one of the more feared units in late medieval and early renaissancement (sorry I don´t know if it is correctly spelled)

[Lusted]

Yes but as edited, perhaps AI is not going to build gunpowder units in campaign.
Yeah tercios are not much weaker but they are, and they were one of the more feared units in late medieval and early renaissancement (sorry I don´t know if it is correctly spelled)

Well its either seriously overpowered gunpowder units, or balanced ones the ai is going to build less of. I went for the 2nd one.

[infierno]

i firstly disliked the new balance, but i think we should make to it, i liked the devastation musketeers did and now somewhat sucks, but its the way it should be

[vonKrysiak]

I agree, gotta chose lesser evil. Well musketeers were way overpowered in vanilla, first of there were too many of them and secondly their accuracy was extremly high. Now it seems to be better...

[Blingerman]

Well I can agree that they were overpowered, and in my tests in custom battles they can win yeoman archers in a duel yet. However, my serious concern is the AI not building them at all. As they have yet some use, I am building them, as human player but AI not what unbalances the game a lot and makes it easier.

Edit: And make tercios better or cheaper as they should be an elite unit. In vanilla their advantage was the cost-effective ratio but you have increased too much the cost for only a bit of attack. Before they were 11 attck vs 14 Aventuros but Aventuros were almost twice expensive, now the difference is yet 3 points in attack but the cost is just over 100. With the new settings they are just a bit better that french pikemen, before they were even better than Aventuros thx to the cost-effective ratio. Remember they are an elite unit.

[CommonJoe]

I dont think that tercios pikemens should be as strongs as the Aventuros. It was the formation used and the combination of arquebus and pikemens that made the tercio strong, not the pikemens themselves (while I do agree that they were somewhat of an elite compared to others nations' pikemens)

If something, its the arquebus that should be stronger. While a musket would fire a heavier and more accurate shot, it would require 44 movements to reload it. The arquebus was much faster to reload and a skilled gunner could fire 3 shot/min (a musket would be 1 shot/min in the best cases).

I also think that spanish should have a militia halberdiers(sp?) unit like the HRE

Yes but what is the point in building archebusiers for instance as England if you have so powerful archers

There is no advantages indeed, this is why England would still use the combination of billmens and archers while all the others kingdoms would use gunpowder, as the bow was superior to the arquebus or the musket

[Blingerman]

I dont think that tercios pikemens should be as strongs as the Aventuros. It was the formation used and the combination of arquebus and pikemens that made the tercio strong, not the pikemens themselves (while I do agree that they were somewhat of an elite compared to others nations' pikemens)

If something, its the arquebus that should be stronger. While a musket would fire a heavier and more accurate shot, it would require 44 movements to reload it. The arquebus was much faster to reload and a skilled gunner could fire 3 shot/min (a musket would be 1 shot/min in the best cases).

I strongly disagree, the portuguese pikemen (aventuros) and the portuguese archebusiers are in game far better than the spanish tercios and archebusiers. Muskteers are just the same. That is a game mistake because that kind of fight was created by the spanish, and portuguese armies did nothing compare to the spanish ones. Portugal should be a bad copy of the spanish army but in the game is Spain the bad copy of Portugal. Even the conquistadores is a spanish unit I don´t know why Portugal has the same unit with the same stats. In vanilla at least Tercios were far cheaper than aventuros but in LTC that advantage is gone.
Imagine the game gives longbowmen to Scotland too and makes the scottish archers far better than the english ones... It is just the same.

The topic of the thirds is of laugh, not only for his low power, but for that they were using armor and shield
Between the piqueros it might distinguish the coseletes and the dry pikes. The coseletes were provided with complete enough armors that were protecting them strongly from the enemy assaults, for what they were occupying the positions most exposed in the formation(training). The dry pikes were not possessing(relying on) so many protection, morion and little any more, occupying the later(posterior) rows

Well in game I roll play with coseletes as sword and buckler men and dry pikes as tercios. But the stats as I have said, and the portuguese comparison it is what makes harm.

[Tercio Pikemen]

http://www.geocities.com/ao1617/Index.html Read and learn

this is easy

musketeers : more atack , less range (100 m) and Low cadence of shot
arquebusier : more atack ,less range (50 m) and low-medium cadence of shot
longbow : long range , good atack ,excellent cadence of shot and very expensive

easy and real

The topic of the thirds is of laugh, not only for his low power, but for that they were using armor and shield
Between the piqueros it might distinguish the coseletes and the dry pikes. The coseletes were provided with complete enough armors that were protecting them strongly from the enemy assaults, for what they were occupying the positions most exposed in the formation(training). The dry pikes were not possessing(relying on) so many protection, morion and little any more, occupying the later(posterior) rows

spanish musketeer XVI : http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articul...oi/rocroi5.jpg
spanish arquebiser XVI : http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articul...oi/rocroi7.jpg
pikeman spanish (coselete) XVI : http://www.lilliputmodel.com/articul...oi/rocroi6.jpg

[notger]

I like your adjustments, Lusted.

Maybe the solution would be to make the gunpowder units appear in faster succession, so that you can recruit more of them, reflecting that it did not took so much training to raise a terzio, compared to raising a longbow unit.

Being said that, Bows rule, guns suck. At least in the time period we look at.