True Turkish Heavy Infantry?

[Sher Khan]

Sure, Janissary Heavy Infantry will mop the floor even with Dismounted Gothic Knights, but they'll be utterly destroyed by cheap archers and crossbowmen. They aren't true heavy infantry I think because of their tiny defence stat, although they have a nice +4 stat against cavalry, making them great units alright.

Except they just don't look as great as other heavy infantry, especially not compared to the ultra-sleek look of the fluted Gothic Knight armor.


So, I figure we should dismount the Turk's best heavy cavalry unit and create a new unit, a Dismounted Quapukulu unit, that'll have equal attack power with the DGK along with the same bonus against armor trait from their maces that the DGK get. Plus, these units will have a nice armor stat of 18+ (since dismounted units usually have higher stats than their mounted versions I think).

Yeah? No? I could seriously use a new Turkish unit that isn't another Janissary 'Something Something' with only 12 defence.

:hmmm:

[Premaximum]

I, personally, don't believe they either need or deserve something that heavy. They're supposed to be reliant on their Janissary units. Giving them good defensive infantry would discredit the Moors ability to field European-esque knights, like the Christian Guard.

[Town Watch]

Sure, Janissary Heavy Infantry will mop the floor even with Dismounted Gothic Knights, but they'll be utterly destroyed by cheap archers and crossbowmen. They aren't true heavy infantry I think because of their tiny defence stat, although they have a nice +4 stat against cavalry, making them great units alright.

Except they just don't look as great as other heavy infantry, especially not compared to the ultra-sleek look of the fluted Gothic Knight armor.


:hmmm:

See? The German made (gothic) design of armour is always superiour, the most beautiful, exquisite, intricate and last but not least, the best.

Way to go :german:

The turkish infantry do in fanct look like bums. Late era eastern general's unit with all the armour upgrades looks pretty sweet though. Pretty much all the european units are magnificently done.

I was really disappointed with CA's lack of effort on the Jihad-special units when I tried Eqyptian campaign.

Europeans get all those über cool knightly orders, dismounted and mounted crusaders, true cross, religious fanatics plus all their own cool faction limited units...

Muslims get... crappy Ghazis?

I mean didn't the muslims have any crusader- equivalents in real life? Some intricate full lamellar cuirass- armoured holy warriors with shiny scimitars and fearsome war masks, not some crappy sheet clothed wannabe bum-Ghazis...

I fully support your idea about atleast making the turkish infantry look better, and also add some better Jihad exclusive troops.

I believe someone put it nicely on this very forum: "It's a european made game, mainly for Europeans" Maybe thats why CA was so lazy...

Isn't CA actually an Australian company BTW?

[Revan The Great]

Giving the turks an equivalent to DGK would overpower them, so I say 'No way'.

Every faction has their weakness, and Turks' is a lack of reliable heavy infantry.

[Town Watch]

So, I figure we should dismount the Turk's best heavy cavalry unit and create a new unit, a Dismounted Quapukulu unit, that'll have equal attack power with the DGK along with the same bonus against armor trait from their maces that the DGK get. Plus, these units will have a nice armor stat of 18+ (since dismounted units usually have higher stats than their mounted versions I think).

Yeah? No? I could seriously use a new Turkish unit that isn't another Janissary 'Something Something' with only 12 defence.

:hmmm:

Umm, DGK have those huge zweihander swords. Mounted gothics have lances and maces. DGK has about 14ish damage.

I truly wonder how a one handed mace can deal almost the same damage as about 1.5 meter long two handed sword. Let alone to be able to reach the enemy without being dismembered by that huge blade employed against you. The leverage of a long sword's swing should prove itself a bit more devastating IMO.

So the mounted gothics and DGK have almost the same damage, which is a bit crazy.

And why do the Quakapulu have better armour then Gothic knights? Both units have shields? Gothic armour was pretty much the best late medieval armour there even was.



Just like damascus steel swords were pretty high quality weapons...

[Slaxx Hatmen]

I agree with Town Watch and while I like Germans(They and the Swedes are the only folks who look good Blond/e.)I think the rest of the map could use some better looking/useful units especially the Muslims.

I mean come on! Militia Turkish horse archers? Militia Archers? Militia *insert dirt poor unit here*? No wonder the AI always builds stacks and stacks of crappy units! Because there are stacks and stacks of them to build! I want my Black Guard of the Caliph! I want my Iranian Savaran!

[Town Watch]

I agree with Town Watch and while I like Germans(They and the Swedes are the only folks who look good Blond/e.)I think the rest of the map could use some better looking/useful units especially the Muslims.

I mean come on! Militia Turkish horse archers? Militia Archers? Militia *insert dirt poor unit here*? No wonder the AI always builds stacks and stacks of crappy units! Because there are stacks and stacks of them to build! I want my Black Guard of the Caliph! I want my Iranian Savaran!

Hehe, Ever heard of Norwegians, Danes, Icelanders, Austrians, Swiss, heck maybe even Netherlanders or Finns... Truly sad....

Well, I'd give the Turks atleast one better and cooler looking heavy infantry unit, but it musn't mop the floors with any of the best European Infantry...

BTW I hate Ireland in M2TW.

Nobody expects the Irish pirates to sink one's fleet full of 10 of his best family members, and three full armies which were brand new and elite in that phase of the game.
I truly ROFLed for a few minutes, there should be a nobody-expects-the-Irish-pirates- smiley, so I could put it here, but I suppose you can't have it all...

[Eien]

i really wonder what happened to the unit of Janissary Infantry that appeared in MTW, they are one of those units ppl fear most since a full stack of janissary infantry can rain hell and are still able in melee, and they have better armor than j.archers =.=

[big_feef]

I know CA nerfed the Janissary heavies because of balance; and I completely agree with them too (for once). Historically, the JHI used large shields slung across their shoulders for protection from arrow fire. The shields could be easily moved to be slung across the back, freeing up the soldier to more effectively wield their polearms.

Unlike the Varangians, the JHI getting shields in M2TW would allow them to totally pwn anything even more... and be basically immune to arrow fire while at it. This is because the shield bonus, unlike the original MTW, protects against both arrow fire and against melee; which would be totally overpowering for the JHI. Their stats would have to be nerfed even more; making them useless as assault troops.

I think they're balanced as they are now anyway.

[Zhou]

I don't think the Turks need another heavy infantry unit for the sake of balance. Sure Janissaries might suffer from arrow fire, but they are one of the best infantry vs infantry units out there, and if you deploy them right, they are highly efficient killers. There should always be balance in an army, even when assaulting a castle or town, and sending just infantry in during a siege assault will almost assuredly cause you more casualties than if a more balanced approach was pursued.

On the other hand, I do agree that aesthetically, there aren't many heavy infantry variations available to the muslim factions.

[Cato the Younger]

I don't think the Turks should get another Heavy Infantry troop, if only for the same reason as not giving JHI shields; - balance.

On the other hand, I totally agree that the Muslim factions have abhorrently ugly troops, which IMO, isn't too different from RTW even (you guys remember the purple pajama eaters)! Where are the gallant looking Muslim cavaliers, clad in both shiny light armor and cloth? The Arab cavalry in Kingdom of Heaven would be a bloody magnificent unit (graphically).

[Crimson Scythe]

I'd actually like to see another Turkish infantry unit, to set them a little more apart from the other Muslim factions (too many Saracen militia units flying around). Maybe not a truly heavy infantry unit, but maybe a solid medium infantry unit, like the Dismounted Feudal Knights, for mid-game. I use Ottoman Infantry right now to fill that slot, since they're pretty good in melee, and they have a shield.

I was thinking something like the guy on the right in this picture. Maybe even an axe-wielder, just like in the picture.

[Ahiga]

At the moment I would rather see Egypt receiving some sort of dismounted melee infantry unit, like a dismounted mameluke. Personally their roster is the most lacking, as the turks get the most goodies at the end and the moors get a rather diverse list, Egypt has the leftovers with only a handful of boring special units.

However, it's likely that when the mods start to come out we will begin to see some of the diversity of the factions being eroded - CA had meant to give us a sort of historical RTS, with factions being distinct and having differences like factions in a non historical RTS [Such as Zerg-terran-Protoss, or NOD-GDI].

The turk's do deserve some sort of heavier defensive infantry, but there are ways to go about encorporating it without losing issues of balance. It might have Armor piercing (Mace) abilities but a lower attack or defense, it could be of smaller rank than a force of dismounted feudal knights, it can cost a lot, it can be recruitable only at the top tier of a building, it can be limited in numbers, it can require a specific Hidden resource to limit it's expansion. Remember that in Barbarian Invasion, particularly the Invasio Barbaroum mod, many factions had heavy infantry of similar status but different abilities or use.

The turk's only real disadvantage is that they take until the high or late era to get good units. Otherwise, they have none, and that's why I can't say they should have the disadvantage of a decent, defensive melee infantry (Though I would just up the moral of Ottoman infantry).

[Town Watch]

Egyptians could use some good infantry too though. Are the mamelukes really too good to deny egypt from some mediocre infantry?? What are those Tabardariyya guys, are they any good?

[Cato the Younger]

The Tabardariyya guys are like the Varangian Guard with a little less defense (don't remember if they have hidden stats); damn good, especially with the 2h fix, as they wield 2h axes.

[Eien]

those units eat armored crusaders for breakfast...

[Lusted]

Isn't CA actually an Australian company BTW?

No CA is UK based, but their Australian branch made M2TW.

Personally i really like the look of the Muslim units like the Royal Mamluks and Janissary Heavy Infantry. Plus Janissary Heavy Infantry combined with Janissary Archers, Quapukulu and Siphais is a very good army.

[big_feef]

No CA is UK based, but their Australian branch made M2TW.

Personally i really like the look of the Muslim units like the Royal Mamluks and Janissary Heavy Infantry. Plus Janissary Heavy Infantry combined with Janissary Archers, Quapukulu and Siphais is a very good army.

Now just add Saracen Infantry or better, Dismounted Sipahi Lancers, and you have a nice recipe for one of the best armies available to anyone in the game. The only one that comes close or even outshines it is the English. All the armour piercing goodness of both their armies set them above and apart.

[Sher Khan]

So, for the issue of balance, perhaps we could skin and mod some unique infantry units for all three Muslim factions? The Turkish lineup I think is good enough, but the Egyptians definately need something more. The Moors could also stand to have some more variety I think.

Really, I'd be totally happy with some reskins. Lusted may like the JHI skins, but I for one think CA could do much better. They just don't look as awesome as their performance suggests (it's those silly looking trousers and shoes clashing with their upper armor and skirt).

[CelticPagan]

One thing I would like to see for the Turks is a good crossbow unit.

Historically, the crossbow came to Europe from China and India via the Middle East. The Moors have some ok units, though not the best, but both the Turks and Egypt, who make use of Arab troops, don't have any. Perhaps an Arab/Saracen based Turkish unit similar to the Pavise Crossbowmen with decent mêlée skills to boot would solve this problem? They'd be similar in nature to the Ottoman Infantry in that they are well rounded missile (with decent armor piercing ability) and mêlée troops, but would be slightly better armed and have a little higher morale.

A similar style troop could be set up for Egypt as well. (They'd also make a nice merc unit available to all three Muslim factions).

Just my two cents, since I stink at skinning and am only slightly better at minor modding.