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Thread: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

  1. #81
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    So, what's the problem with gender equality?
    Some people don’t know it when they see it.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    I don't think basics can be accused of any bigoted and ignorant statement about women, in Europe we are now accustomed to living with very powerful women in our private lives and on the public scene, we can just advance some ironic and nostalgic thought about the happy ancient days in which the ancient Gods were stil walking on Earth and the European women were not so powerful. I think it's understandable as mental stance, especially coming from a continent in which Feminism is a three centuries old value and now law in any EU nation.
    Your counter claim and explanation doesn't click.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Setekh View Post
    What an ignorant and bigoted view on gender equality. You can't just pick any women and try to evaluate a whole concept that's in reality based on providing equal opportunity to both genders without favoring one over the other. There is no sense in what you're saying.
    Setekh,

    I am not suggesting that anyone gets picked over another because of their gender but what I am suggesting is that women are far stronger in the equality stakes than we give them credit for.

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PFElton,

    I cannot deny what Rome did across the world in the name of God but while this was going on there were Christians who sticking to the Scriptures did not indulge in these practices. The problem was that men who were never born again assumed the rulership of Christ's mission for His people to tell of the Gospel in humility and love and done mostly in an unadvertised manner. This was the case in Britain until the Roman system was introduced and so up until the death of Macbeth who in reality was like his wife a devout Christian in the Scriptural fashion. I don't know whether it is true but there is a belief that Paul himself actually set foot on these shores to bolster those that were already preaching the word here.
    There have been plenty of non-Catholic Christians who have committed atrocities.
    If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country.

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Just a reminder that the original purpose of this thread was whether Christianity or Paganism represents Europeans as a people.

    While I understand the theological arguments of Christianity, what are the real advantages that it brings to Europe? And can it even be considered a European, and therefore traditionalist, ideology?
    I don't think either does, because their was never a unified European Paganism, nor was their ever a unified European Christianity.
    If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country.

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    This gender equality stuff baffles me at times simply because as a married man whatever I do in the house or for the house my wife always has a little niggle about it as most married men will probably agree with. It doesn't matter about the technicalities because there is always something that she would have done differently and whenever that has happened we always had to revert to my way. That's women and there is nothing that can be done about that so the cry is always " I need you to do this for me or that for me." Yeah, and it has to be done now. Where are my rights and gender equality? So, might I suggest that for Christmas every man should give their wives a set of overalls, a set of tools and then leave them to it?
    How someone can even write this with a straight face in modern Britain is shocking and amusing to me.
    If I had to choose between betraying my friends and betraying my country, I hope I would have the guts to betray my country.

  7. #87
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I don't think either does, because their was never a unified European Paganism, nor was their ever a unified European Christianity.
    Both good points. European Christianity generally though, did somewhat absorb elements of the native pagan culture in things like Christmas and other holidays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    How someone can even write this with a straight face in modern Britain is shocking and amusing to me.
    Well he’s not really wrong to be honest. My parents were quite like he described.
    Last edited by Aexodus; July 26, 2018 at 04:19 PM.
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  8. #88
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    This gender equality stuff baffles me at times simply because as a married man whatever I do in the house or for the house my wife always has a little niggle about it as most married men will probably agree with. It doesn't matter about the technicalities because there is always something that she would have done differently and whenever that has happened we always had to revert to my way. That's women and there is nothing that can be done about that so the cry is always " I need you to do this for me or that for me." Yeah, and it has to be done now. Where are my rights and gender equality? So, might I suggest that for Christmas every man should give their wives a set of overalls, a set of tools and then leave them to it?
    I am lost. In General everyone always is likely to have not quite the same same opinion about how to do something than yourself. As to what anyone's partner asks them to do, I rather suspect that depends on on what one skills are and what one asserts they can do and has rather little to do with ones possession or not of a penis and or tits. Seeing as I am married I find your post a tat biased and of course also pointless since any single example is n-1 - useless... But if we are going to compare wives... you see that nice mustang in my profile - don't think for a minute it was me a city boy from Detroit who 'broke' it and trained it (now you want to steal a car I got that...). I helped sure, under the direction of my wife. A women who in her long ownership of hoses and as a hose trainer had her ribs broken both her legs and arms and her skull smashed and lost and eye and all w/o asking for a man to do the work. As a plant geneticist canidate grad student she drove all over the Midwest to harvest her own test plots in the worst of US Midwest summer weather and the only thing she asked of her then male flat mate was to help pick of the ticks she could not reach.

    You know one thing I am good at is electrical work. Aside from the BA in Electrical engineering, and relatives that were skilled trades in building and thus summer jobs to that effect, and say the abilty to research what is up to code. One thing I have discovered after owning 10 different houses in 20 years is that most do yourself guys are rubbish at home repair and really should have called an expert and not donned overalls and grasped tools and pretended they knew anything about the work their wife might realistically have decided the she (or her manly man husband) knew anything about.

    But enjoy your world. You are right I suppose biology is tilled a bit. Very few women are going to be 6 foot eight and weight 250 pounds of muscle, but than again so are few guys anyway and that really says nothing about doing work about the house except what you were allowed to learn at home or in education. I bought a house in south Houston owned by a NASA astronaut who lived there for 20 years. He was a poster child for your kind of man. His electrical work was textbook 'man' it very nearly killed me with his piss poor 'I got this honey implementation' to the point of using the ground to run hot. Gee wiz his manly ways allowed him to run short cuts great. They were however below code and gave me shock that cost me a nice fall off a ladder and ton weekends putting the house up to standard.
    Last edited by conon394; July 26, 2018 at 09:31 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  9. #89
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Smith View Post
    I don't think either does, because their was never a unified European Paganism, nor was their ever a unified European Christianity.
    Outside of a minority of Wiccans who still purport the Murrayite thesis, I don't think anyone, even in Modern Pagandom, argue that there was a universal, unified, Europe-wide single Pagan religion. What they do argue is that the various pre-Christian polytheistic religions constitute something like the indigenous traditions of the various European peoples. In the same way that living tribal religions today constitute a form of indigenous tradition. And that the revival of those polytheistic traditions, inasmuch as they can be revived and reconstructed, have a better claim at being the indigenous "spiritual heart" of those same peoples.

    While I am a Pagan, I...don't entirely agree with that. I feel it veers a little too close to ethnic essentialism and racialism. It sounds sensible on the surface, but the vast majority of people who lay that kind of claim wind up being Neonazis or white supremacist ethno-nationalists.

    And, from a historical perspective, it's debatable. So much of what Christianity is developed in Late Classical and post-Roman Europe, and the religion itself became a unifying cultural element for Europeans from Spain to the Baltics, from Scandinavia on down to Anatolia. In a way, despite claiming to be a universal religion, Medieval Christianity became the ethnic religion of many Europeans, as it both absorbed indigenous traditions and reinforced its own, transforming the folkways and customs of the entire continent and embedding itself in the ethnic identity of most European tribes and nations. I think it's fair to argue that a common European identity and sense of self is just as much rooted in its history as the cradle of Christianity, as it is rooted in its history as a melting pot of various polytheistic tribes and city-states.

    As a historian, I think that both parts are equally vital in understanding Western Civilization.
    Last edited by MaximiIian; July 27, 2018 at 12:49 AM.

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    In the same way that living tribal religions today constitute a form of indigenous tradition. And that the revival of those polytheistic traditions, inasmuch as they can be revived and reconstructed, have a better claim at being the indigenous "spiritual heart" of those same peoples.

    While I am a Pagan, I...don't entirely agree with that. I feel it veers a little too close to ethnic essentialism and racialism. It sounds sensible on the surface, but the vast majority of people who lay that kind of claim wind up being Neonazis or white supremacist ethno-nationalists.
    I essentially agree with everything you’ve said here, but, I can’t help thinking what is the difference between what you suggested, and say, native american animism/paganism.
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  11. #91
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I essentially agree with everything you’ve said here, but, I can’t help thinking what is the difference between what you suggested, and say, native american animism/paganism.
    Some of the distinction comes from having a nuanced perspective of the rights of native peoples, and on the history of colonialism. Native Americans, unlike Europeans, have living animistic and polytheistic religious traditions, not revived ones; those traditions form a part of their existing ethnic identity, and like the people themselves were nearly wiped out by white settlers in the Americas. It is important to preserve those living traditions, because they are a part of those peoples' living culture. Especially because, even after the genocide of natives, these people are still suffering and are still oppressed. Supporting the preservation of their traditions and the maintaining of the existing ethnic character of those traditions is part and parcel of supporting the preservation of Native culture and supporting the rights of Natives as an oppressed minority. There is a very real power dynamic involving the cultural hegemony of white settlers in the Americas, and that has to be taken into account here.

    By contrast, the only people who would claim that white Europeans are an oppressed minority suffering from the aftereffects of genocide and colonialism...are Neonazis.

  12. #92

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    I know as many pagans who are lefty, globalism liberals as pagans (like myself) who are very sceptical of it. Brexit caused quite a divide in my local pagan community.
    You can't be really claim ties to European spirtuality and at the same time support set of egalitarian ideas aimed at destroying European civilization and culture. Then again, there are groups that fuse hippie nonsense with Wiccan pseudo-folkish LARPing. If you want to get in touch with real Indo-European spirituality, then it is time to stop hugging trees and open books, in this particular case I'd suggest Evola, Guenon and maybe Cleary.

  13. #93
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You can't be really claim ties to European spirtuality and at the same time support set of egalitarian ideas aimed at destroying European civilization and culture.
    If you think European culture is threatened by an even and equal playing field, then you must think European culture is pretty weak. Not to mention that our current mainstream ideas of egalitarianism are a distinctly European, Enlightenment-era phenomenon, inspired by European, Classical-era ideas on humanity and universality.
    European spirituality can't be destroyed by egalitarianism and social justice unless European spirituality is founded in racism and xenophobia. Which most Modern Pagans reject.

    If you want to get in touch with real Indo-European spirituality,...I'd suggest Evola
    Ha, wow. Okay, so you're a neofascist. Good to know.

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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola
    Evola also advocated rape (among other forms of male domination of women) because he saw it "as a natural expression of male desire".
    What a delightful guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  15. #95

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Now that's smear campaign, Evola is basically a reactionary in the classical sense, the 3 movements, capitalism, fascism and communism, are all seen as "revolutionary modernities" by the author, who stays a coherent reactionary, thus not supporting any revolutionary movement even if it's fascism.

    He supports a way of Traditionalism with capital T, that he claims to be Universal world wide and Recurrent, and that sooner or later re-establishes itself as the normality. There is then, a certain Deterministic Cyclical force to re-establish the Tradition, regardless of individual actions.

    Background has a lot of Eastern mysticism, from Hinduism, Buddhism, Yoga and so on.

    His open preference for Esoteric movements makes his writings even more confusing for people who didn't invest time in the author.

    You can't apply XXI century buzzwords to eastern esoterism without messing the whole thing up.
    Last edited by fkizz; August 15, 2018 at 07:41 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  16. #96

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    Some of the distinction comes from having a nuanced perspective of the rights of native peoples, and on the history of colonialism. Native Americans, unlike Europeans, have living animistic and polytheistic religious traditions, not revived ones; those traditions form a part of their existing ethnic identity, and like the people themselves were nearly wiped out by white settlers in the Americas. It is important to preserve those living traditions, because they are a part of those peoples' living culture. Especially because, even after the genocide of natives, these people are still suffering and are still oppressed. Supporting the preservation of their traditions and the maintaining of the existing ethnic character of those traditions is part and parcel of supporting the preservation of Native culture and supporting the rights of Natives as an oppressed minority. There is a very real power dynamic involving the cultural hegemony of white settlers in the Americas, and that has to be taken into account here.
    You do know that the category "native peoples" in places outside of your country include white Europeans (and a few white Asians who could easily pass for Europeans), right? "Native" is one of those words that is useless without a geographical context. It's not an ethnonym by itself.


    By contrast, the only people who would claim that white Europeans are an oppressed minority suffering from the aftereffects of genocide and colonialism...are Neonazis.
    Speaking as someone who doesn't live in Europe, I see...

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Regardless of whether it is oppressed or not, I see we are all in agreement that native cultures should be protected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  18. #98
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Now that's smear campaign, Evola is basically a reactionary in the classical sense, the 3 movements, capitalism, fascism and communism, are all seen as "revolutionary modernities" by the author, who stays a coherent reactionary, thus not supporting any revolutionary movement even if it's fascism.

    He supports a way of Traditionalism with capital T, that he claims to be Universal world wide and Recurrent, and that sooner or later re-establishes itself as the normality. There is then, a certain Deterministic Cyclical force to re-establish the Tradition, regardless of individual actions.

    Background has a lot of Eastern mysticism, from Hinduism, Buddhism, Yoga and so on.

    His open preference for Esoteric movements makes his writings even more confusing for people who didn't invest time in the author.

    You can't apply XXI century buzzwords to eastern esoterism without messing the whole thing up.
    "Reactionary" In the classical sense I grant that. He the kind person the Demos in Athens would removed relatively quickly. Too their benefit.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #99

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    "Reactionary" In the classical sense I grant that. He the kind person the Demos in Athens would removed relatively quickly. Too their benefit.
    As you know, Socrates was removed by the Demos in Athens. Not sure if that was indirect flattery.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  20. #100

    Default Re: A Pagan take on traditionalism and politicised science.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    If you think European culture is threatened by an even and equal playing field, then you must think European culture is pretty weak. Not to mention that our current mainstream ideas of egalitarianism are a distinctly European, Enlightenment-era phenomenon, inspired by European, Classical-era ideas on humanity and universality.
    European spirituality can't be destroyed by egalitarianism and social justice unless European spirituality is founded in racism and xenophobia. Which most Modern Pagans reject.
    Truth is, European culture has been traditionally hierarchical, while "egalitarianism" is distinctly a non-European idea, in fact, it is fair to view it as an anti-European idea. From Christianity (which Spengler correctly named as grandmother of Bolshevism) to modern-day so-called "progressivism" such forces played rather negative role in European history. I'm pretty sure that people who embrace European tradition and culture do not want to see it destroyed, hence why your attempt to speak on behalf of "Modern Pagans" seems rather poor way of trying to prove your point.

    Ha, wow. Okay, so you're a neofascist. Good to know.
    Evola is a Traditionalist. He criticized Axis governments, for which he wasn't allowed to do lectures in Germany. Calling him "fascist" is just showing your ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Now let's look at the original quote:
    “A woman who is perfectly woman is superior to a man who is imperfectly man, just as a farmer who is faithful to his land and performs his work perfectly is superior to a king who cannot do his own work,” says Evola (Eros, 34).
    And of course, citation for that claim is not even Evola's own works, but articles about him. As it was said above, modern tabloid buzzwords are largely irrelevant while discussing Evola's esoteric ideas. In regards to his "misogyny" this article does a great job debunking that myth:
    https://www.counter-currents.com/201...bsolute-woman/

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    "Reactionary" In the classical sense I grant that. He the kind person the Demos in Athens would removed relatively quickly. Too their benefit.
    You are talking about Greek society when it was already declining, so I guess that proves my point...
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; August 19, 2018 at 10:57 PM.

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