Best tactics against Theasalion amd Makedon?

[Badnercalabrese]

Hi team.
I am wondering if anyone has any tips or suggestions on how to better deal with these two factions. This will be more lf a rant. It's not that I can't eventually end these factions - it's more to dealing with them exhausts my will to continue the campaign further.

After playing through several campaigns with Hellenika I find there is no greater annoyance than Makedon and Thessaly.

Removing them immediately would be ideal but as Athens for example..you have a lot more on your priority list early and mid game.
My biggest grief with these two factions is how quickly they expand and how meaningless your battles can be against them.

I absolutely love the intensity of dealing with the primary factions. You really feel your back to the wall as Athens...Boetians, Korinthians, Spartans all invading. It is arguably the best TW experience I ever had.

The struggle to maintain the Delian league, dynamic events and then eventually the Persians! Beyond intense...
The great aspect of those battles is the significance each one has. When you defeat a spartan army - you are really hindering their ability to continue the war effectively with each unit lost. The same goes for your own units.
Thessaly and Makedon on the other hand, recruit endless units. I find myself destroying stack after stack with little result. . The city ranges are very far so it is difficult to consolidate your gains. As this SHOULD be difficult. One does not simply march into thessaly. Difficult terrain, long distances, great cav. I know it cant be easy...it's just I find it hard to imagine these factions would be able to take so many casualties and continue the war as effectively as they do.

How effective were they really in history at this time? I find these two factions more difficult to resolve than the main peloponnesian league but it's possibly just in my head.

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[Phalangitis]

In Hellenika indeed Macedon along with Epeirous and Thessaly are considered strong factions and, along with the main playable ones of course, receive a boost in their army caps compared to other generic Hellenic factions. To be honest I never faced much of a problem with them even though I play in very hard-very hard difficulty setting. Macedon and Thessaly lacks quality hoplitic infantry. Their hoplites are inferior in stats and especially in morale than Athenian infantry (and even more compared to my Spartans) and even the elite Thessalian cavalry is not better than the Athenian one (although Athens has only 4 unit of such elite cavalry). Even if their cavalry outnumber yours it can be answered with a nice wall of spears in front of them. They do tend to move a lot and flank you but this this is (as I see it) a nice challenge fighting against them. A nicely placed hoplitic formation can destroy any Thessalian or Macedonian charge.

I dont know what strategy you prefere for dealing with them but I usually try to invade those provinces with a strong attack force of 2-3 full stacks keeping only one behind in homeland plus heavy navy appearance in ports. Keeping navy at ports cost no money plus keeps a large area protected cause Ai takes its presence plus its movement range into consideration. (And imagine that I play as Sparta. For Athens beeing closer to Thessaly and MAcedon it seems even easier the invasion). I use 2 stacks to attck and the other one to replenish damaged troops or keep it as garrison for the newly invaded cities as the attack force moves ahead to quickly destroy them. One strong attack will make the occupation of Thessaly and Macedon usually a matter of few turns. I faced 1-2 major battles quickly replenishing my armies with AOR and the 3rd army in reserve as described. Remember to use navy in the few cities that you have the ability to attack by sea and use it as a guarding force to further free the third land stack to move ahead.

My main problem in my campaigns is usually the decisive battles you have to adress (like Manineia for example as Sparta. Each faction faces different decisive battles every time). In very hard setting the decisive battles consist of many elite enemy stacks exactly with the same composition as described in Thucidides. In lower settings the enemy appearing is easier to handle.

P.S. Needless to say that it is of great importance to do the fighting only under favorable omens. Sometimes it is better to loose a turn waiting for a favorable omen than atacking with bad signs. I am sure you know this tip of course because it is basic in Hellenika and you are an experienced player

P.S 2 For the record I want to say that even though I created this mod's mechanics I cursed myself many times before I learned how to react strategically in Hellenika's environment. In many cases I wondered if this mod could be more F.. up than it already is BUT to be honest I saw that when I was changing my strategies to more realistic options the results were surprising better. For example I have played a certain battle 5-6 times and was loosing all the time and easily. I though that it was the end of my campaign but a small change in my strategy led to a decisive victory on my behalf. Such a huge difference in the outcome only with the simple change on the way the attack was performed. I am not trying to "defend" Hellenika, as I told you I am probably the one that has cursed it the most but I think that it has a wisdom of its own. And to be fair this wisdom was not created by me. I am not to "blame". This wisdom was created naturally because we followed history to the letter. We followed texts so blindly that the result was inevidably close to the actual event

[Badnercalabrese]

That was sort of the inspiration I needed from you mate. I restarted my campaign with Athens in hard difficulty and decided to take out Thermon ASAP. they also become extremely horrible to deal with especially when the pelopponesians arrive.

I think I am in a good position to just focus on my main enemies I just always dread when Makedon starts attacking Kalkides around Amphipolis and Olynthos.
The last time I played with Athens I destroyed Brasidas the same turn he arrived there but Makedon did not sign a peace treaty after. They are tough to deal with simply because my army up north is pretty weak and their cav is superior ans in great numbers (my heavy cav is always focused in Attike..Although you are right I think the best way to deal with them and Thessaly will be to suck it up, and send in 2-3 stacks when I can.

Thanks for reminding me about the importance of omens. I was aware about it but I must be honest...I wasnt paying much attention to using it towards my advantage. When I want to attack - I attack. Now I am paying much more attention and it makes the mod even better. Although sometimes an attack is absolutely necessary despite the omens. When I removed Aitolion -the omens were bad but I needed them gone before they recruit too much for my single stack to handle. .

Also...From my last thread if you recall I had a problem with the generals not spawning at their coordinates. I realized I had that crash fix submod enabled which I assume was the root cause of my problem. I am assuming it will function as it should now. I will keep you posted.

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[Phalangitis]

Yes. For sure that submod was the reason.
As for Macedonia not signing pace treaty after victory over Brasidas I will check out out soon and get back to you. It should be signing that treaty..work
As for the omens yes their impact is great in the battle outcome but when you must astral you must I understand. I too bypass those omens sometimes

[Phalangitis]

I checked the code and it looks good. I am also pretty sure that I have tested it brfore and it was working but with the steam updates you can never be sure.

In order for the peace treaty to work the Athenian player should achieve victory in Amphilopolis region exactly at turn 35 though (the turn in which Brasidas is spawned). Even a turn later is considered a sign of weaknes from Macedon and they do not sign easily

[Badnercalabrese]

I will keep an eye out on that. Thanks for verifying. In my new campaign on hard difficulty he has not yet spawned.
I just quelled the Mytilene rebellion and I had to do it by actually attacking with 2 navy stacks. It was quite the battle but for whatever reason the siege had a dreadful FPS and would be difficult to watch.

I also recently removed the Spartan led stack at Naupaktos. Razing Thermon early game had a HUGE impact. That might even be the turning point next to Mytilene for the entire campaign.

Now the Thebans have finally entered attike. I have never seen them take so long to make themselves known there.

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