Making Roman Campaingn harder

[ScipioTheGreat]

Any tips for making the Roman Campaign harder? Obviously it's one of the easier factions, but sometimes it seems like my Roman Infantry just steamrolls over everything (Almost like it did historically ). Currently playing on H/H

Cheers

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Official hardcore submod?

[Satansblofish]

HC submod, De AI Arbitis and Cultural Tensio should slow down your expansion. Instead of HC, perhaps the Data Venia overhaul submod and you can pair it up with DE AI Arbitis and Cultural Tensio.

[hoho96]

play "historically" as in don't take any region unless it says so in the historical info you get each year.
what this does is that is prevents you from rushing the etruscans and epirus early on, forces you to declare war on the celts in cisalpine relatively early but not controlling their areas till way later, give carthage plenty of time reinforcing and attacking sicily,....etc

I've found that the biggest handicap really is the fact that since your expansion is so slow, you can get enough imperium to recruit more armies. so you will be in situations where you have plenty of land but not enough armies to defend it all

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Any tips for making the Roman Campaign harder? Obviously it's one of the easier factions, but sometimes it seems like my Roman Infantry just steamrolls over everything (Almost like it did historically ). Currently playing on H/H

Cheers

Historical expansion and house rules, plus the official and unofficial submods will make you cry. Take my word for it.

[Ivan_Moscavich]

House rules are best rules.

[Ichon]

Bump it up to VH. DEI is balanced for normal and the amount of armies the AI can churn out really ups the difficulty as well some of the close battles can easily be lost when all the AI units have several bonuses.

The most difficult thing is learning unit matchups when playing on VH. They still matter though DEI makes them less meaningful for many units but you have to really pay attention to enemy unit cards. Some units that seem nearly identical perform quite differently in battles. When I first tried DEI in an older version I found the phalanx totally overpowered vs Roman units with 2 Principes attack front and back unable to rout even a single mid-tier Greek phalanx though I was also playing on VH so all my armies were outnumbered every battle as well- if could have had higher numbers could probably have overcome that balance issue but anyway- newer DEI is much better balanced.

The battles I was surprised at now is fighting Celts with Rome, Hastati and Principes can get steamrolled while the Triarii are literally the last line holding in almost all my battles with equal numbers (well the baggage handlers are a bit useless for anything other than chasing routers but the AI usually mismanages at least 1 or 2 units completely so its fair in 20 v 20 battles). It is tempting to just build more Triarii (I think the Patricians population grows too quickly, Latium has 20k Patricians and only 80k plebians and 20k foreigners) but trying to do 5 Hastati, 5 Principes, 3 Triarii, 4 Velites, baggage train, general, 1 random mercenary/cavalry and keep a supporting auxiliary army for every formal Legion.

I do really like how naval forces actually feel useful now- was really surprised to find my convoy of troop transports sailing from Rome to Corsica attacked by 2 Carthaginian fleets at the start of the Punic wars which has sailed from Carthage on the same turn. Had to actually focus on switching a port to military and building up a navy and keep armies stationed at all the nearer ports which cut my useable armies by half and made simultaneous Punic Wars and fighting the Ligurians, Helvetii, and Trevantii quite interesting. When finally had built up a fleet it still wasn't enough and had to start looting cities on the borders and letting them turn rebel to fund 2nd fleet that finally started to turn the Punic War into Rome's favor.

Massalia taking nearly all of Hispania and my client Odrysians capturing Greece and suiciding armies constantly vs Carthage's fleets probably helped as well.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

House rules are best rules.

Αlways mate.

[JCB206]

Bump it up to VH. DEI is balanced for normal and the amount of armies the AI can churn out really ups the difficulty as well some of the close battles can easily be lost when all the AI units have several bonuses.

The most difficult thing is learning unit matchups when playing on VH. They still matter though DEI makes them less meaningful for many units but you have to really pay attention to enemy unit cards. Some units that seem nearly identical perform quite differently in battles. When I first tried DEI in an older version I found the phalanx totally overpowered vs Roman units with 2 Principes attack front and back unable to rout even a single mid-tier Greek phalanx though I was also playing on VH so all my armies were outnumbered every battle as well- if could have had higher numbers could probably have overcome that balance issue but anyway- newer DEI is much better balanced.

The battles I was surprised at now is fighting Celts with Rome, Hastati and Principes can get steamrolled while the Triarii are literally the last line holding in almost all my battles with equal numbers (well the baggage handlers are a bit useless for anything other than chasing routers but the AI usually mismanages at least 1 or 2 units completely so its fair in 20 v 20 battles). It is tempting to just build more Triarii (I think the Patricians population grows too quickly, Latium has 20k Patricians and only 80k plebians and 20k foreigners) but trying to do 5 Hastati, 5 Principes, 3 Triarii, 4 Velites, baggage train, general, 1 random mercenary/cavalry and keep a supporting auxiliary army for every formal Legion.

I do really like how naval forces actually feel useful now- was really surprised to find my convoy of troop transports sailing from Rome to Corsica attacked by 2 Carthaginian fleets at the start of the Punic wars which has sailed from Carthage on the same turn. Had to actually focus on switching a port to military and building up a navy and keep armies stationed at all the nearer ports which cut my useable armies by half and made simultaneous Punic Wars and fighting the Ligurians, Helvetii, and Trevantii quite interesting. When finally had built up a fleet it still wasn't enough and had to start looting cities on the borders and letting them turn rebel to fund 2nd fleet that finally started to turn the Punic War into Rome's favor.

Massalia taking nearly all of Hispania and my client Odrysians capturing Greece and suiciding armies constantly vs Carthage's fleets probably helped as well.

You play VH battles too?

[waidizss]

Data Venia.

[Ichon]

You play VH battles too?

Yeah, makes the starting battles alot harder but you can usually outnumber in those battles and I would say getting a training champion fast to get your armies up to silver XP so you'll at least have a chance of your frontline holding. Also cavalry supported by spears to eliminate enemy cavalry then cavalry to eliminate enemy ranged, then rear cycle charge. It all takes awhile and my hastati and principes will be routing or nearly by the time start rear charging but the triarii can last awhile and if you keep a couple skirmishers alive on the field you've won.

Since I try to keep my legion armies proportional most of the cavalry will have to go in accompanying auxillary army. Until Punic Wars start you can have 2 armies on most fronts or even all 4/6 and getting night battles to fight armies in the field as much as possible before expensive siege assaults. Client kingdoms and trade help for money but getting trade takes quite awhile and some bribes. I probably started the Punic Wars a bit early but Sicily is making almost 9k per turn and is the most valuable province though Latium would probably beat it if I didn't have so many military buildings there. The most annoying part of VH bonus is in ranged duels- I am not sure how well VH would work with steppe horse archer factions for example and you'll notice the AI bonus really fast in any ranged duels as they get +reload and +accuracy, maybe +damage as well but I can't remember for sure.

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Yeah, makes the starting battles alot harder but you can usually outnumber in those battles and I would say getting a training champion fast to get your armies up to silver XP so you'll at least have a chance of your frontline holding. Also cavalry supported by spears to eliminate enemy cavalry then cavalry to eliminate enemy ranged, then rear cycle charge. It all takes awhile and my hastati and principes will be routing or nearly by the time start rear charging but the triarii can last awhile and if you keep a couple skirmishers alive on the field you've won.

Since I try to keep my legion armies proportional most of the cavalry will have to go in accompanying auxillary army. Until Punic Wars start you can have 2 armies on most fronts or even all 4/6 and getting night battles to fight armies in the field as much as possible before expensive siege assaults. Client kingdoms and trade help for money but getting trade takes quite awhile and some bribes. I probably started the Punic Wars a bit early but Sicily is making almost 9k per turn and is the most valuable province though Latium would probably beat it if I didn't have so many military buildings there. The most annoying part of VH bonus is in ranged duels- I am not sure how well VH would work with steppe horse archer factions for example and you'll notice the AI bonus really fast in any ranged duels as they get +reload and +accuracy, maybe +damage as well but I can't remember for sure.

VH battles are quite unbalanced and unfair to a great extent. For certain factions (as you already mentioned) AI's bonuses are VERY noticeable and I really wouldn't suggest them for the average player. Now you're not a rookie, so you could use whatever you prefer. Most people are even complaining for the normal difficulty though, if you're getting my point.

[Beedo83]

I've been running a 24tpy with reduced movement Rome campaign with the hardcore mod and it's pretty tough. Playing on N/N and I'm usually outnumbered with some battles that could have gone either way. Have had a war going with Illyria for several years now and it's really been back and forth. Probably the most fun I've had yet with the Romans and they are my favorite faction to play in campaign. Subjugated Epirus after a bloody war and made an ally out of Syracuse which took freaking forever to do but I'm managing to delay the Punic wars until they actually started which is really interesting as Carthage has now had almost 200 turns to prepare. Unintended side effects being that all the AI reforms have triggered and I'm still on Polybian, very cool so far!

[popovic]

VH+Hardcore mod.

I would also increase the likeliness AI declares war slightly (I can explain how it`s done, if needed).

[Satansblofish]

If your PC can handle it, 41 unit armies adds a nice spice!

[JCB206]

Yeah, makes the starting battles alot harder but you can usually outnumber in those battles and I would say getting a training champion fast to get your armies up to silver XP so you'll at least have a chance of your frontline holding. Also cavalry supported by spears to eliminate enemy cavalry then cavalry to eliminate enemy ranged, then rear cycle charge. It all takes awhile and my hastati and principes will be routing or nearly by the time start rear charging but the triarii can last awhile and if you keep a couple skirmishers alive on the field you've won.

Since I try to keep my legion armies proportional most of the cavalry will have to go in accompanying auxillary army. Until Punic Wars start you can have 2 armies on most fronts or even all 4/6 and getting night battles to fight armies in the field as much as possible before expensive siege assaults. Client kingdoms and trade help for money but getting trade takes quite awhile and some bribes. I probably started the Punic Wars a bit early but Sicily is making almost 9k per turn and is the most valuable province though Latium would probably beat it if I didn't have so many military buildings there. The most annoying part of VH bonus is in ranged duels- I am not sure how well VH would work with steppe horse archer factions for example and you'll notice the AI bonus really fast in any ranged duels as they get +reload and +accuracy, maybe +damage as well but I can't remember for sure.

Very impressive, my hats off to you. I find the battles irritating. Watching your heavy front line cave in from levy and light troops.

I decided recently to try and act like an ancient general instead. (Still in testing phase) I give 5 commands per generals rank after initial commands given. I give the battle line an order to Group Defend a point, depending on whether I am the attacker or defender. I give the Group Defend order to each wing, whether I want them to defend the flank of the phalanx or in their rear. Then I take charge of the general. I can control the units in my "range of control". It has been interesting and removes me playing as the God of War during battles. Just another option.

Good luck in your attempts.

[Ichon]

Very impressive, my hats off to you. I find the battles irritating. Watching your heavy front line cave in from levy and light troops.

I decided recently to try and act like an ancient general instead. (Still in testing phase) I give 5 commands per generals rank after initial commands given. I give the battle line an order to Group Defend a point, depending on whether I am the attacker or defender. I give the Group Defend order to each wing, whether I want them to defend the flank of the phalanx or in their rear. Then I take charge of the general. I can control the units in my "range of control". It has been interesting and removes me playing as the God of War during battles. Just another option.

Good luck in your attempts.

I quite like doing what you describe with dividing the army up and giving the AI orders to simulate less control and not being 100% in control- I've done that alot in other TWs particularly MTW2. I hadn't thought of limiting orders by general rank for TW, that is present in some wargames I've played and could work for TW if playing disciplined. It would take alot of focus and often when I play I am half asleep trying to squeeze in time. I don't play all campaigns on VH but for coming back to DeI and seeing the status of the mod and playing Roma (one of the easier factions) I thought VH would be appropriate.

DeI has balanced units very closely so the VH bonuses AI gets are a bit more obvious though there are some surprisingly effective units fighting above their weight. I am particularly fond of the Greek dark throwers (forget their name) and javelin cavalry which has most of the same stats as medium cavalry but can take out half unit of opposing cavalry with light losses with javelins. The Celtic/German infantry generals on VH are a real pain to take down with Polybian Romans if they aren't veterans. Lost a couple battles because I just could not kill the 3 generals the AI had around a minor settlement. Silver chevron units fight about equal on VH and gold still have an advantage (unless they are fighting AI silver chevroned units which happens surprisingly frequently in DeI).

Some of my most interesting battles in MTW2 were with reinforcing armies controlled by the AI- first deciding how to allocate the units the AI received, then the group attack/defend areas (which the AI does not always follow) made it feel like trying to guess what subordinates were likely to do given a set of general orders.

I really remember a huge battles vs Mongols in Stainless Steel as HRE with 5-6 armies involved. Played it out several times giving the reinforcing AI different units and orders- I thought giving them cavalry would get the cavalry butchered and it did when I only gave them some cavalry. What ended up working is taking only the general and a few horse archers along with most of the weaker infantry for my own command and giving the AI all the knights and stronger infantry and foot archers. Putting the infantry into schitrom ahead of where the reinforcing AI foot archers and infantry would enter the map and running the horse archers and my general to hide in a forest so they didn't die to Mongol arrows before reinforcements arrived. The schitroms drew Mongol heavy cavalry and horse archer attacks but allowed the AI foot archers to focus on the Mongol horse archers in range while the heavy infantry dealt with the heavy cavalry and then the 2nd AI army came with 100% cavalry and just did a huge mass charge while the general and few horse archers went to support vs clumps of defenders then split up the reinforcing Mongol armies entering the map so the cavalry could regroup by defending a new area. Was gloriously messy and took hours to play out several times trying to find the right formula.

[Dago Red]

Bottom line, you shouldn't have to increase anything to VH to play the game. If Rome is that easy, then it's just too easy, especially for the player. I still see under strength Roman garrisons defeating full stack armies that can easily dispatch other faction's field armies -- forget about other factions defeating Rome in the field, they can't even defeat armed townspeople and retirees. I don't want to see Rome go back to being the wimp of the Mediterranean, but when they own all of Greece and North Africa before the historical message about the First Punic War even comes up, something is off!

(It's nice to have the option to adjust difficulty for veteran players, but personally I'm just not interested in fighting hordes of spam armies every turn, or fighting units with ridiculous hidden bonuses. It's why DeI has it right the first time, balanced on "normal").

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

Bottom line, you shouldn't have to increase anything to VH to play the game. If Rome is that easy, then it's just too easy, especially for the player. I still see under strength Roman garrisons defeating full stack armies that can easily dispatch other faction's field armies -- forget about other factions defeating Rome in the field, they can't even defeat armed townspeople and retirees. I don't want to see Rome go back to being the wimp of the Mediterranean, but when they own all of Greece and North Africa before the historical message about the First Punic War even comes up, something is off!

(It's nice to have the option to adjust difficulty for veteran players, but personally I'm just not interested in fighting hordes of spam armies every turn, or fighting units with ridiculous hidden bonuses. It's why DeI has it right the first time, balanced on "normal").

Each to his own I guess. But our suggested battle difficulty is still normal, indeed.

[Ichon]

Each to his own I guess. But our suggested battle difficulty is still normal, indeed.

Still trying to wrap my head around how the unit stats work in DeI. I was struggling most battles with Polybian Roman units though I did notice several reform events for other culture groups before I upgraded to Marian reforms- with Marian the Legionaries seem to do 2x the kills despite having nearly identical states. Was hit rate or some hidden state upgraded or is it only because units are balanced so closely before Marian reforms all my units were -6 melee attack (+ the VH bonus) and now they are the same (VH bonus offset by most of my units now being gold chevron)?

Now the hardest part is keeping momentum- succumbed to annoyance and broke with strict Roman/Auxillary army pairings to hire a couple mercenary armies with 100% foreigner population so don't have to march back to Roman culture land for several turns. The war against Liguria dragged in literally 100% of the Celtic and Germanic tribes that weren't in my ally group (Averni is the only survivor- Leguoz took over Europe from the Danube to Royal Scythia killing a couple of my smaller allies before I realized their danger).

The most interesting part other than battles has been managing politics as I stayed a normal Republic (intend to stay a Republic until after first civil war or between 135-91 between Servile and Social wars). Promotions and followers are key. The +gravitus and +influence for your part or any part that is lagging largely with influence, allowing occasional adoptions while trying to make sure every party has minimum 2-3 active members with weaker party always having a statesmen with +gravitus. Paying attention to the party leader traits as a pacifist and patriot together can easily be -30 loyalty. Ensuring a follower with negative gravitus is attached too any ambition party leaders, using loyalty edicts when necessary- building up a stock of extra statesmen before any series of major battles in case some generals die putting one of the parties at only single character, try not to assassinate or bribe too often but when necessary can make a big difference 10-20 turns down the line.

The nice thing is Bactria and Carthage are actually keeping pace with Rome's expansion and appear to be solid opponents. Finally got the upper hand over Carthage in the naval war (took 3 fleets and some support from transports almost driving Rome bankrupt).