Right, I've just spent the past hour cleaning up the past day's worth of replies to this thread. In addition to my previous warning, I feel it necessary to remind members that this thread is for:
Discussing the Desert Kingdoms DLC Pack, specifically
Commenting on other members' posting habits - respond to their points, or not at all; use the Report button to report rule breaking instead of replying to them
Anything not mentioned in the first list
I strongly advise all members to comply with this.
I have supported CA enough over the years and enough is enough. The quality of the DLC there producing is a total rip off as there are better quality units already available in some of the amazing mods that I have already mentioned. Why would I want to waste my money on poor quality DLC when mods already fulfill these factions with 1000% better quality units?
its a no brainier really for me and yeah I already spent that money at Starbucks so sorry CA I enjoyed that cappuccino better than your DLC!
Care to elaborate? How the modded units are 1000% better quality?
Care to elaborate? How the modded units are 1000% better quality?
Certainly very happy to elaborate...its as simple as this go and download War of the Gods or DEI mods and you will see the units available within each faction. You will see lots of variation highly detailed units that you can see the creators have spent some time to create these units to look realistic in game, Its that simple. CA have created units which in my opinion are sub standard with no variation to the models in game. Again a "clone wars" looking army!
Since they have bothered to take ideas for units from other mods it would have been a very simple task for one of there minions at HQ to at least added some variation to the armour, weapons, shields etc...lazy developer in my opinion and the only thing I am grateful from CA is what they produced and released a "base" game that modders have then completed the job for them.
I have compared the units from the DLC (which I have not bought, but I am more than capable to see these units in game using PFM etc..) to what is FREELY available from the modding community and there is no contest. Modders win hands down.
Last edited by Clint_Eastwood; March 12, 2018 at 05:14 AM.
Very, very, very disappointed and totally glad that I did not buy the DLC. Having looked at the units within PFM I can confirm that they are in my opinion ripped off units from DEI and War of the Gods mods!
However the FLC looks interesting in some areas but not bothered about having female generals running around in my game! Glad I saved my £6.99 and spent it wisely on two cappuccinos for me and the wife in Starbucks and that I enjoyed immensely.
In fact I know that cleopatra, Boudicca and Teuta were already available in War of the Gods mod around 2 years ago!
Tis is really cheap that CA do not come up with there own ideas as there is so much of Rome 2 that needs to be fixed but instead they are taking modders work and making it into a money pit for there own success. Bad crack and unacceptable! I wonder how the creators of WOTG and DEI feel about this?
CA and the modders are both drawing from the same limited sources (history,) so it's no wonder that the two are going to end up with similar units, especially when dealing with the same cultures and factions. And including historical figures like Cleopatra, Boudicca and Teuta is hardly an original idea, especially considering that Cleopatra and Teuta were both in trailers/ingame videos and art already, the former since before launch.
We've had culture packs since launch, and we've had additional content that adds playable factions to the Grand Campaign since Medieval 1: Viking Invasion, so again the question can just as easily be posed "why can't modders come up with their own original ideas instead of just making Culture Packs." Neither can claim to be wholy original ideas, especially as both are based on history.
So if anyone is "ripping off" someone, you can just as easily say modders and CA are both ripping off history!
EDIT: From what I've seen Desert Kingdoms has lots of new units which I haven't seen in Rome 2 before. Whether they're similar to some made by modders at some point is really immaterial to me, as I don't use unit and faction mods. Heck I barely use mods at all except when I feel like mixing things up a bit and so add a few minor tweaks and unofficial patch mods.
Desert Kingdoms isn't for everyone. But for some, like me, it's a great addition to Rome 2 and hopefully the start of even greater things to come in this second era of Rome 2 DLC. I'm looking forward to it!
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
Last edited by Welsh Dragon; March 12, 2018 at 05:32 AM.
CA and the modders are both drawing from the same limited sources (history,) so it's no wonder that the two are going to end up with similar units, especially when dealing with the same cultures and factions. And including historical figures like Cleopatra, Boudicca and Teuta is hardly an original idea, especially considering that Cleopatra and Teuta were both in trailers/ingame videos and art already.
We've had culture packs since launch, and we've had additional content that adds playable factions to the Grand Campaign since Medieval 1: Viking Invasion, so again the question can just as easily be posed "why can't modders come up with their own original ideas instead of just making Culture Packs." Neither can claim to be wholy original ideas, especially as both are based on history.
So if anyone is "ripping off" someone, you can just as easily say modders and CA are both ripping off history!
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
I dont think you are on the same level of my discussion here, what I am pointing out is the fact that Modders have created better units with the following included Variants to heads, armour, weapons, helmets, shields etc...modders have bothered to spend time and effort to make the units look individual and not so much like clone armies. CA's version of the similar units all have the same look in there finished product and you can clearly see that no real thought or effort has gone into the finished product.
Cleopatra, Teuta and Boudicea are ok but again I prefer the Arena Models which I know are available in War of the Gods for over two years now. My discussion is not on what is historical fact as I understand it is difficult to know what is real and what is fantasy due to limited resources but my stance is that CA should have put more effort into there DLC packs. I have no problem making any purchase on DLC content providing it is given me something new and unique which in this instance is not applicable, hence Starbucks got my hard earned cash!!
EDIT: Thats fine if you dont use other mods then Desert Kingdoms fulfills that gap to these factions. For me Vanilla game is unplayable and Mods are a must for real immersion in game.
I also do not understand this quote, i have made no reference to culture packs from modders: "why can't modders come up with their own original ideas instead of just making Culture Packs."??
Last edited by Clint_Eastwood; March 12, 2018 at 05:42 AM.
I dont think you are on the same level of my discussion here, what I am pointing out is the fact that Modders have created better units with the following included Variants to heads, armour, weapons, helmets, shields etc...modders have bothered to spend time and effort to make the units look individual and not so much like clone armies. CA's version of the similar units all have the same look in there finished product and you can clearly see that no real thought or effort has gone into the finished product.
I just fired up a battle as Masaesyli (vanilla) and I have a wide variety of units with a wide variety of variants and nice touches (like how the Desert Cavalry's shields are covered in different animal skins native to the region, or that the Desert Legionaries have Roman style shields but decorated with African markings.) I look at the Desert Kingdoms factions and I see a lot of effort and a lot of thought has been put into them, to give them each a unique look that fits the faction whilst also fitting within the world of Rome 2.
Now I don't doubt that modders, who have a lot more time and freedom to create an astonishing variety of unit looks may have more variations that you may prefer. But in my view that doesn't make the ones made by the developers the result of "no real thought or effort." I'm sure that both modders and developers do the best that they can working with the resources and within the constraints they have.
Originally Posted by Clint_Eastwood
Cleopatra, Teuta and Boudicea are ok but again I prefer the Arena Models which I know are available in War of the Gods for over two years now. My discussion is not on what is historical fact as I understand it is difficult to know what is real and what is fantasy due to limited resources but my stance is that CA should have put more effort into there DLC packs
Fair enough.
Originally Posted by Clint_Eastwood
EDIT: Thats fine if you dont use other mods then Desert Kingdoms fulfills that gap to these factions. For me Vanilla game is unplayable and Mods are a must for real immersion in game.
Again fair enough. I'm glad that we both have the option to play the game how we prefer.
Originally Posted by Clint_Eastwood
I also do not understand this quote, i have made no reference to culture packs from modders: "why can't modders come up with their own original ideas instead of just making Culture Packs."??
Sorry, that wasn't meant to be a direct quote. I sometimes use speech marks for emphasis, or to draw a comparison between what was said and what could just as easily be said. But I can see how that may not be as clear as I'd like.
What I was basically saying was just as in your post you suggest that CA making this sort of content isn't original because modders have already done it, my point was that modders making those aren't original either, because CA has already done it with things like Viking Invasion and Culture Pack DLC. And they're both drawing from history. Hope that's a bit clearer now.
I'm not saying buy the DLC. It's your money and your choice. And I understand that you feel the mods offer better versions of these factions and units for you. All I'm saying is that in recognising the effort modders put into their mods, please don't underestimate the effort that the people at CA and CA Sofia put into making this DLC, nor the restrictions they have to work within that a modder doesn't.
Anyway, however you're choosing to play Rome 2 and the Desert Kingdoms, I hope everyone is having as much fun as I am in my Masaesyli campaign.
Welsh dragon your missing one vital point CA employees get paid to make these unit packs, modders do this for fun! There is a massive difference here as I feel that I am buying a sub standard product against what is already available in the market for free!
my stance is this is you are paid to do a job the standard should be at a level that is at its superior best and not at its lowest level which it is here.
I guess that makes sense. If you found something better in mods then just stick with it.
But not everyone plays mods. In fact modders are still a very tiny minority of players.
This DLC has value for a lot of people. I know it does for me.
Welsh dragon your missing one vital point CA employees get paid to make these unit packs, modders do this for fun! There is a massive difference here as I feel that I am buying a sub standard product against what is already available in the market for free!
my stance is this is you are paid to do a job the standard should be at a level that is at its superior best and not at its lowest level which it is here.
Fair enough. My view is that it is already at a high standard, and that if the modders were working within the same constraints as those doing it as a job, that the product they created would be at the same or a lower standard than that which CA is producing for the DLC.
To me it's basically like the difference between a writer who is doing it as a hobby, can write only a few words a day, tinker with their story as much as they like, and so can spend 10 years on one book if they want. And another who is writing for a living, and so has to produce a certain amount of content and meet specific deadlines. The hobbyist has a much greater amount of freedom than the professional, because their time is their own and the end result doesn't have to fit within the restrictions set by those paying for the work.
Also much like games, I enjoy the "amateur" fiction I can read online for free, but I also have favourite "professional" authors who I am more than happy to pay for to be able to read. Each has advantages and disadvantages, so it's nice to have both options available.
But anyway, getting back on topic, it's funny how playing a new faction can give you a new perspective on the campaign. I've played Lusitani quite a bit, but going up against them with my lightly armoured Numidians really gave me new insight into just how much the enemies of the Lusitani and other guerrilla factions in history must have felt fighting an enemy they can't see and who can whittle them down in a hail of javelins. Also having played Masaesyli now, I am both dreading and looking forward to facing them in battle when I play a different faction. Wow those horses are fast!
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
Last edited by Welsh Dragon; March 12, 2018 at 07:15 AM.
I guess that makes sense. If you found something better in mods then just stick with it.
But not everyone plays mods. In fact modders are still a very tiny minority of players.
This DLC has value for a lot of people. I know it does for me.
Define very tiny minority? for me that sounds like 5%, which is absolutly not the case. Also I wouldnt put people who played rome 2 vanilla for maybe 50hours 2 years ago on the same level as someone who plays 500h with mods. Yes, in your statistics that is of equal value, instinctivly it doesnt. Just as an example, a lot of TW youtubers use mods in various degrees
A lot of us would like to stick with mods, but modders have moved on, as CA didn't look at rome 2 for over 2 years, I can't blame them. then again, I don't see faction dlc as worthwile content
(and now comes the traditional either "well roll back then", which you cant do if you use a collection, or the "your own dumb fault for using mods" reply). I Find the writers comparison pretty stupid tbh. Modders don't do 10 years over a mod at a leisure pace, they work at the same (or almost the same) pace as the devellopers. Giving their limited amount of resources and doing it for free, it's pretty astonishing that many do a better job than people who get paid for it.
We are 4 years on and the TTT mod is still the best thing you can get from rome 2 when it comes to characters and personality, and thats just one aspect of gameplay. Thats sad.
Last edited by eXistenZ; March 12, 2018 at 08:21 AM.
Define very tiny minority? for me that sounds like 5%, which is absolutly not the case. Also I wouldnt put people who played rome 2 vanilla for maybe 50hours 2 years ago on the same level as someone who plays 500h with mods. Yes, in your statistics that is of equal value, instinctivly it doesnt. Just as an example, a lot of TW youtubers use mods in various degrees
A lot of us would like to stick with mods, but modders have moved on, as CA didn't look at rome 2 for over 2 years, I can't blame them. then again, I don't see faction dlc as worthwile content
(and now comes the traditional either "well roll back then", which you cant do if you use a collection, or the "your own dumb fault for using mods" reply). I Find the writers comparison pretty stupid tbh. Modders don't do 10 years over a mod at a leisure pace, they work at the same (or almost the same) pace as the devellopers. Giving their limited amount of resources and doing it for free, it's pretty astonishing that many do a better job than people who get paid for it.
We are 4 years on and the TTT mod is still the best thing you can get from rome 2 when it comes to characters and personality, and thats just one aspect of gameplay. Thats sad.
As nearly a third of users use mods for ROME II...
See? Only like 30% players maybe even little less are using mods and we cannot say that all of them are using big ones like DEI. I have no idea how many...can we say 20%? That´s still only 1/5 of all players. My view is, CA is making small problem for 1/5 of players while rest 4/5 will only see benefits..And probably even many from these using big overhaul mods will buy Desert Kingdoms anyway or dont consider it even problem in first place..
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I can imagine only small fraction like 10% could be using big mods...just because the more complex way to play the more hardcore players it takes...Gaussian distribution with more complex mods being further from Vanilla in the middle? Blue part correspond with people without mods
Modders are different from developers. That´s why TTT mod is still so popular. It is very narrow mod improving just one aspect of game! Such modder can spend his time polishing and honing the one aspect up to perfection while CA developers are to caretake to all possible players and take care about whole game as it is. You are free to use mod and if you are not liking it, then you just unsubscribe it but developers have to produce something to catch the eyes of as many people as possible. Surely they would be able to spend all resources improving a few aspects of game but then reviews will critisize the rest of the game...
Last edited by Daruwind; March 12, 2018 at 10:08 AM.
yes, lets cut from 30% to 20% in a heartbeat with a faulty reasoning cause that helps the point comes accross beter.... I don't even play DEI and I consider myself not a heavy modder (I only have like 8 installed, 12 before patch 17), yet I'm screwed.
So yes, 30% of people who have played rome 2, played it with mods. But feel free to open a poll with the people who are still playing, and ask if they use mods. It will be a lot higher than 30%
Not to mention the faulty reasoning of how TTT "can spend all the time he wants because he only does one minor thing"? Have you never worked in a team? Everybody has their job/domain. The guy who programs civil wars litterally doesnt have to care on how the AI moves his armies/ builds up his cities/ conducts its diplomacy. it's not his "aspect". So there is no difference between how mods are being developped or the game itself, and claiming that modders can put more resources in their work than CA can is totally ludicrous
It's amazing how people come up with ways to defend CA doing a poorer jobs than unpaid (semi)-amateurs...
Last edited by eXistenZ; March 12, 2018 at 09:58 AM.
Basically mods are what keeping people playing Rome 2, for example DEI mod has a massive following and not knocking any other mods in the hosted section I strongly believe that this is probably one of the major factors CA decided to re invest in Rome 2 due to the popularity of mods that are available on TWC that keep this game alive for them, also not forgetting all the Steam based mods that are available!
I know deep down that CA care for the modding community and they have even employed ex modders like Jack Lusted, Mitch etc..they would not take this approach if they did not care for there community. However it is still a sad state of affairs that from a modders perspective (me) they release really poor DLC that I would instantly not use in my game. When people are paying for a product I expect to get what I pay for my money which is an exceptional product that should surpass any mod that is available for these factions or any other faction. Unfortunatley this is not the case as already mentioned in my previous posts.
Certainly very happy to elaborate...its as simple as this go and download War of the Gods or DEI mods and you will see the units available within each faction. You will see lots of variation highly detailed units that you can see the creators have spent some time to create these units to look realistic in game, Its that simple. CA have created units which in my opinion are sub standard with no variation to the models in game. Again a "clone wars" looking army!
Since they have bothered to take ideas for units from other mods it would have been a very simple task for one of there minions at HQ to at least added some variation to the armour, weapons, shields etc...lazy developer in my opinion and the only thing I am grateful from CA is what they produced and released a "base" game that modders have then completed the job for them.
I have compared the units from the DLC (which I have not bought, but I am more than capable to see these units in game using PFM etc..) to what is FREELY available from the modding community and there is no contest. Modders win hands down.
Thanks for the response. I tried to find images of the DEI units of Kush, but I couldn't find any.
So, they're prettier than the ones in the DLC? Because I'm playing as Kush and I like the units. But I haven't seen them all yet.
Originally Posted by Clint_Eastwood
Basically mods are what keeping people playing Rome 2, for example DEI mod has a massive following and not knocking any other mods in the hosted section I strongly believe that this is probably one of the major factors CA decided to re invest in Rome 2 due to the popularity of mods that are available on TWC that keep this game alive for them, also not forgetting all the Steam based mods that are available!
I know deep down that CA care for the modding community and they have even employed ex modders like Jack Lusted, Mitch etc..they would not take this approach if they did not care for there community. However it is still a sad state of affairs that from a modders perspective (me) they release really poor DLC that I would instantly not use in my game. When people are paying for a product I expect to get what I pay for my money which is an exceptional product that should surpass any mod that is available for these factions or any other faction. Unfortunatley this is not the case as already mentioned in my previous posts.
I don't know. I mean, I'm still playing Rome 2, and I'm not big on mods.
The mods that I use are the 4tpy, because I like having the seasons in the same year. And some units mods which adds female units. Because Daughter of Mars wasn't enough. Not even close.
Ah, and used a mod to stop the agents because I got feed up with them. But now I'm playing with agents... for now.
And about the quality of the DLC, I'm using it and for me it's pretty great. I'm having tons of fun with Kush trying to create a Big Empire.
Originally Posted by eXistenZ
yes, lets cut from 30% to 20% in a heartbeat with a faulty reasoning cause that helps the point comes accross beter.... I don't even play DEI and I consider myself not a heavy modder (I only have like 8 installed, 12 before patch 17), yet I'm screwed.
So yes, 30% of people who have played rome 2, played it with mods. But feel free to open a poll with the people who are still playing, and ask if they use mods. It will be a lot higher than 30%
Not to mention the faulty reasoning of how TTT "can spend all the time he wants because he only does one minor thing"? Have you never worked in a team? Everybody has their job/domain. The guy who programs civil wars litterally doesnt have to care on how the AI moves his armies/ builds up his cities/ conducts its diplomacy. it's not his "aspect". So there is no difference between how mods are being developped or the game itself, and claiming that modders can put more resources in their work than CA can is totally ludicrous
It's amazing how people come up with ways to defend CA doing a poorer jobs than unpaid (semi)-amateurs...
Well, I'm use some mods, and I'm not screwed. I fixed the female units mods that I use for ED and it's still working in this version. So, yay.
And Dresden updated his 4tpy mod. Yay! But it's not like I couldn't play without it.
I'm a lighter mod user than you seems. Never saw the need to use some of those big mods. Plus, those tends to be too much historical accurate to my tastes!
And a poll is nice and all... but how you reach the players? I can imagine that tons of players doesn't even visit the Steam forums of R2TW.
No problem Kamenlilly, I do prefer historical accuracy and mods like War of the Gods and DEI to fulfill the total immersion this game should be for me. Vanilla too me is like an arcade game and I understand that everyone is different on there tastes! All I can say is try the mods you wont be disappointed!
yes, lets cut from 30% to 20% in a heartbeat with a faulty reasoning cause that helps the point comes accross beter.... I don't even play DEI and I consider myself not a heavy modder (I only have like 8 installed, 12 before patch 17), yet I'm screwed.
I´m trying to find middleground. From 30% of players with mods, saying that 20% of those are using DEI is quite bold saying, but let´s put in even Radious,Magnar and other big conversion,overhauls....Do you have any hard data on the topic? Nope? And we already have some light mod users here...my ,Welsch, Lilly, you said it as well. Because we are quessing here. It could be very well that 20% are using just small mods and big overhauls are the rest 10%. That was my theory but I have no proof. But neither do you for any other claims....
So yes, 30% of people who have played rome 2, played it with mods. But feel free to open a poll with the people who are still playing, and ask if they use mods. It will be a lot higher than 30%
There is basically no reason to do a polls about mods as probably majority of people here is using some kind od mods. This forum is biased at best...That´s like doing poll in hospital about reason being there...probably majority will tell you they are ill...or doctors
We have only statement from CA. 1/3 using mods, 2/3 are not.
EDIT: but feel free to do poll yourself.
Not to mention the faulty reasoning of how TTT "can spend all the time he wants because he only does one minor thing"? Have you never worked in a team? Everybody has their job/domain. The guy who programs civil wars litterally doesnt have to care on how the AI moves his armies/ builds up his cities/ conducts its diplomacy. it's not his "aspect". So there is no difference between how mods are being developped or the game itself, and claiming that modders can put more resources in their work than CA can is totally ludicrous
I´m specially talking about small mods. Mods made by 1-2 guys. There are no deadlines. If you need one more month to complete the mod, nobody will beat you but good luck trying to move release dates in company. You can do it once in while or if you are like Activision but probably not with every DLC, at least not if you intend on keeping the work ;-) You are jumping back to big conversion/overhauls with many people. i would love to ask Dresden what it is like in such big team. Probably much less democratic as you think as they have probably trying to fill missing people, those who stopped modding. At least i know a few things about Ancient Empire....But crucial thing is the same. There are no hard deadlines. Go and work in IT it is quite different to pay bills,mortage... and taking care about work in comparison with free time work in college....
It's amazing how people come up with ways to defend CA doing a poorer jobs than unpaid (semi)-amateurs...
I would like to have you as manager resposible for one such DLC. Go and watch video with Jack explaning they had only resources for 4 voiceovers in ToB. See that is development from opposing side. You know how much resources you have and your duty is distribute them among all aspects of game...units, mechanics, voice,graphics...
Last edited by Daruwind; March 12, 2018 at 12:05 PM.
I was looking back at some of the earliest posts in this thread, and I happened to notice some discussion we had on Steam Reviews and using this to judge the opinion of the Total War Audience.
Now I personally don't give much weight to Steam Reviews, but apparently others do, so I thought I'd take a look to see what they had to say. So it's interesting to see that Desert Kingdoms DLC is currently sitting at a "Very Positive" rating, with 84% of reviewers having given in a positive review. That's not far off Tomb Kings 86% overall and better than its 76% recent reviews scores.
So I guess if that is a measure of the Total War Audience, as others have suggested, the Audience have spoken... and they like what they see!
Which is good if you're hoping Desert Kingdoms does well and leads to more DLC like this (or Empire Divided,) in future.
All the Best,
Welsh Dragon.
Last edited by Welsh Dragon; March 12, 2018 at 12:19 PM.
This DLC gives the Desert People the historical accurate temples, which are exact the ones, i haved used in my Desert Temple Mod. They had done a proper research.
Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
And tomorrow you'll be on your way
Don't give a damn about what other people say
Because tomorrow is a brand-new day
Re: Desert Kingdoms DLC Pack
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Originally Posted by Clint_Eastwood
Blue part correspond with people without mods
