Once More with Feeling - The Road to 3.0

[bphl98]

Ahh, sorry. I didn't mean canoe as a unit, but seeing your screenshot of Aztec landing on Africa. The ship's models are different than the usual Galleys or Cogs that other factions use.

The reason why I suggested you to change the Jihad and Damascus flag are... There are too many crescents! I liked what you did with the Caliphate of Baghdad and Khwarezmian Empire because they have a rather diverse symbolism other than the three crescents, turkish crescent, and vertical crescent hahaha

In RL though, early medieval Muslims have a pretty simple flag. The black standard, plain green, plain white. Don't know why but maybe they know men tends to worship symbols? Or didn't care to use complicated symbols.

Back to topic, I don't know why I suggested for you to use a horizontal scimitar. It must have something to do with me trying to make it look as symmetrical as possible.
However, I do have an idea for a more 'diverse' muslim banners.

1. Caliphate of Baghdad should get the black standard. The plain black banner that Umayyad/Abbasid Caliphate used, then their current in-game symbol could be used for the Emirate of Damascus. I think it would fit well.

2. Either the moors or egypt could really get some love by using the Rub el Hizb, it's not historically accurate but balance and diversity are everything eh? I prefer Egypt though because the Moors have a pretty badass flag.

yeah i agreed with Cokjan, black banner for caliph of baghdad sound nice

[4zumi]

@cokjan

Thanks for the suggestions, I will consider them and may make according changes if I see fit.
And thanks for pointing me at the Rub el Hizb, I had not considered the meaning behind it as I made a COA for the Marrakesh title.
And I know the pain of the muslims using a simple flag very well, as it was very hard to come up with symbols for the islamic world titles.

And here a glimpse of my recent Novgorod test campaign.
On another note: Novgorod now gets to recruit Viking Raiders from castles. I thought it would fit well with their history. And it should help them immensely in the early game.
Oh, and I might have a slight Mongolian problem coming to me...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[♔atthias♔]

good work 4zumi I look forward to be in the mongols way in 3.0

[Cokjan]

Dammit, now that you mentioned vikings...

How do you feel about their unit's attribute of Scares enemy units? I'm pretty sure they are OP right now, just imagine if you have a full 10 dreaded General with a bunch of Danes/Norwegian troops. I think it would be better if you put the attribute to the Barbarians, Danish Axemen, Norse War Clerics, andGotland Footmen. As they have a reputation, the Europeans don't see the Vikings as demon anymore. Oh also don't forget the Varangian Guard.


Also there's some things that you might consider,

Byzantine Spearmen and Byzantine Spear Militia are exactly the same in stats. Maybe you can buff Byz. Spearmen with a bit of attack and defense, as their upkeep are a little higher than the militia. Also Dismounted Lancers and Byzantine Infantry have the same stats too, with D. Lancers having a slightly higher upkeep. I don't know why, but because of that, the Byzantine Empire can create a pretty huge army.

[4zumi]

@cokjan
Now that you mentioned that, I think you are right. The Viking Raiders and Huscarls have the frighten_foot attribute.
I removed them from these units, as well as the Highlanders that had this too.

And I gave this attribute now like you suggested to the Gotland Footmen, Norse Axemen. I will leave the Clerics out, as well as the Varangians (because they already have insane stats 19AP 20 DEF), the Norway Berserkers already had the frighten_foot, I also gave it to the Sami Axemen (norway).

I will test this out, but I think this could work pretty well and is more appropriate from a unit role perspective.

The difference in these seemingly same units are the armor upgrades.
The Dismounted Byz Lancers have 4, the Byz Infantry have 2
The Spear Militia has 2, the Spearmen have 3.

The Byzantines can create a huge an powerful army, because they have very good city troops. They will be the last faction for me to test and maybe they will get some changes. I already implemented a small feature regarding the Greek Firethrower and the Archontopolai, they are only recruitable if Byzantium holds Constantinople. (This was a feature in the Crusades campaign).

@atthias
I look forward to you cursing me, when the mongol wave swallows your empire

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

I see alot of Mongolian Rape going on in the campaign map lol

Though I maybe the only one who loves an aggressive Mongolia, having an aggressive enemy like that to me in my honest opinion is a good way to depopulate your cities, sending rubbish troops to be fodder on the battlefield, fighting an endless perpetual war on the frontier where only the strong survives

[Cokjan]

Holy crap, I just realized. Khwarezm and Cumans are wiped out. They are pretty much buffer zones from the mongols eh? Some decent historical accuracy there...

Some discussion here, what's your reason to reduce gunpowder units? I see that they use the kneel fire and they are superior to vanilla. But they are very susceptible to Cavalry and other missile units due to their slow reload and can't shoot through friendly troops. They just don't have the capability as a frontline troops, and better suited as skirmishers (flanking, their morale shock is HUGE and kills through armored units very quick), in my honest opinion.

I really appreciate modders like you 4zumi, taking suggestion to consideration. And discussing matters with other players, even though it's your mod.

@KasierStahl

What do you mean depopulate? Do you mean the mongols sacking/massacring your city? As far as I know, Medieval II doesn't use the population system of recruiting from Rome. Thus recruiting doesn't decrease your pop at all.

[4zumi]

@cokjan
Yeah, the buffer zones are gone really fast once the mongol invasion warn event triggers.
(The Mongols are set to war with those two per script and with the spawned armies make short work of them. This is the reason I fear playtesting those two)

Gunpowder units and me have along history. i tried a few things, but they are just clunky. So the reason I reduced the size by half and doubled the ranged damage is, that they are much better to control, if the group is smaller. (I always play on ultra size, so they have a unit count of 60 for me)
Now the can be used in cities as well, even if they are crap on the walls, but in the streets they can be devastating if positioning right.

The were always susceptible to cavalry, so the is not much change. For the other missile units: I have given them 2 Hitpoints, so they won't fall as easy, but are still vulnerable to other missile units.
They are not meant as "frontline" "taking the charge" unit. They are better used as flankers or if on the front line "en masse" with pike or equal protection. And sure, they need a clear line of sight, so position is key.
But all their downsides are easily forgotten, when the start racking up kills due to their power.

And thanks for the compliment. I do not know everything and need a fresh perspective from time to time. And I would not have thought about some things if not for the people that play TVB. As an example, your frighten_food comment or the Toll Building (Castle) i recently added (by a suggestion of Shogun), or Joyeuse Ancillary by Kasier. So if I like an addidion I have not formerly known about or someone changed my mind about it, I implement those things with pleasure.

So, as I always say. Everyone is welcome to make suggestions, but please do not be mad at me if I don't consider them if I don't like them

[♔atthias♔]

@4zumi I really like what you did to the byzantines and the ginpowder units I am very happy to hear it +ep

[Cokjan]

@4zumi

Ah! What a nice change of role, and yes they does respond so much better than Vanilla because of their reduced size. And I must've been stupid because I did not see that you have doubled their hitpoints.


By the way, here's a few suggestions (I prefer to call it ideas for you though) This time it's about the Byzantines.

1) Dismounted Lancers should be spearmen. To face the Mongol threat, a heavy spearmen would be nice to have. As dismounted Latinkon could fill the role of heavy infantry easily.

2) Most unit armors should be more upgradeable, what I mean is :
Byzantine Infantry could use the third tier upgrade

[Cokjan]

- Pronoia Infantry up to the third tier (Dis. Latinkon has a pretty sweet Scale armour models that they only use)
- Alamanoi also to third tier.
- Varangians... Bah it's up to you, but if I were the emperor I would give my elite units the best of the best:p

That could make for an interesting playstyle for Byzantine, because they would be left behind when all the gunpowder stuff happens. At least they have an arsenal of Armors.

Sorry for double posting, I accidentally pressed tab and it posted somehow. And I can't edit it...

[4zumi]

@atthias
Thanks again for the rep - And the Byzantines are still on my list, and I think they will get some more changes.

@cokjan
Thank you. I will consider all of this and as far as I can see, there will be definitively some changes to the Byzantines. I think I made up my mind and try to merge dismounted byzantine lancers and byzantine infantry, etc.
Giving an unit new amour model is a bit out of my reach, as I would need a model for that. But we will see where all this will lead.

@all
I made some adjustments to Damscus, as they were in dire need for that. Roster related changes, etc.
They had access to the Tabadriya, but now no longer have, because the have gotten now their very own elite unit.

The Damascene Mubarizun

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A heavy infantry (city) unit with high attack and medium armour. Without AP, but they spank Dismounted Feudal Knights Butts.

[4zumi]

And just before I go to bed another glimpse of a new unit.

The Byzantine "Athanatoi" (Immortals) - A unique unit recruitable in Constantinople (much like the Constable of Jerusalem, etc)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Right now I have jumped down a Byzantine Rabbithole and will post soon more about the Byzantine recruitment mechanic.
So stay tuned.

[Cokjan]

Whoa, new units! I thought you hit the limit, I guess peasants really are useful after all (Looking at you peasant archers, jk)


I had something in mind to spice the Muslim factions. Recruitable Mutattawia and Ghazis (the crappy fanatic units) from Mosques (the second tier one, not small one)
Seeing all that elite order units of Antioch, Jerusalem, etc. Envies the muslim world, now they turn to use more cheaper zealot volunteers recruited from the local mosques! (Ofc limit the available unit pool, to prevent mass spam)


Also, the tower of David are pretty useless as a wonder IMO. Are you considering to change some of the wonders? I believe there are just too many located in the Levant right now. And IMO maybe some more unique units for the factions by removing Tripoli and Edessan troops (Antioch and Jerusalem are enough, but roleplaying are also fun lol)

[4zumi]

I have hit the limit a long time ago. Everything new just means, something else had to go.
In this case I merged Dismounted Byzantine Lancers and Byzantine Infantry, Spear Milita with Byzantine Spearmen, and deleted the Merc Cog (now there is only one type of mercenary ship left. So, that freed up 3 slots.
And I am really considering to merge peasant and militia archers,... (But this will affect most every faction in game, so I have to be careful.

In a recent built I made Mudjahedeen available from the Kaaba and Fedayeen from the Dome of the Rock. I will think about the other possibility, but doubt at the moment I will implement that, as I do not want them to be available everywhere even with a very slow replenishment rate.

The Tower of David is just a small "roleplay addition" and the "Home to the Contabler". And don't you touch my Edessan and Tripoli crusader states units, I dare you, I double dare you...
No, seriously, those I will keep, because I like the distinct rosters of every of the 4 crusader states.

[Cokjan]

Ah! So that leave one more unit, I wonder what that'll be hmm...
And I fully support you if you want to merge the peasant and militia, although it does sounds like a very tedious work.

About the recruitable zealots, I am confused myself why did I even suggest such an idea. I think I have too much free time because of holiday...

[4zumi]

Thanks.
I will do a brief summary on the Byzantines once the weekend starts. (They get 2 unique_units and 1 regular unit (status right now))
And the work on the Archers could be tedious or very quick, depends on what I find out.

And don't be confused, ideas are welcome It's just that I don't see this implemented in my mod.

[♔atthias♔]

really happy to hear about the new stuff 4zumi

[Cokjan]

Cheers for the Byzantines!
Also, looking forward to play as them (Cumans and Khwarezm too) and play it Attila style.

About the zealots, it's just that after I think about it for a while. It is a pretty ridiculous idea, but I can't edit the posts so just let it be

[4zumi]

Good news everyone,

before I go deeper into other themes, I just want to mention that the testing of the final five has begun. (Cumans are done, Mongols in progress, after that Norway, HRE and the Byzantines.)
And it helps immensely that I am now on vacation

That said, I wanted to give some updates, like promised.


Test campaigns

The state of the map in my Cuman migration campaign. I became a friendly neighboor with the Hungarians.
I did not want any trouble with the Mongol Overlords, so I decided to move my lands to the west.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The state of the map after my Damscene campaign.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The state of the map after my Kwarzemimimi campaign. I decided to take on the Mongols early before their invasion event, that now inlcudes new spawned armies if they hold Karakorum at the time of the event.
So I made a mad dash and succeded and wiped them of the map. And became the Mongols myself

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The state of the map after my Rus campaign. Nothing special to mention here.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The campaign map

I stripped the far east of two provinces, to counter the unopposed expansion here and get some island fun in the Mediterranean.
Zarang and Kabul are gone, therefore Malta and Mallorca are the new party locations.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

New Units & Changes
(no it does not mean, that I have had free slots all the time. It means, that I have merged existing ones like archer militia and peasant archers or others )

The Byzantines (after Cokjan gave me an idea)

Latinkon Spearmen (regular unit - castle)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Immortals (unique unit - only recruitable in Constantinople, with the officer model of Andronicus)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Scholae Palatinae (unique unit - only available in Rome, with the officer model of Andronicus)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Damascenes

Elite City unit of the Damascenes Mazuribuns (or something like that)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Muslim Factions

Vizir of Jerusalem (with the officer model of Saladin) (every muslim faction can recruit this unique unit in Jerusalem from the David's Tower - replenishable everywhere in the Outremer)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kaaba Guards (with the officer model of Nur-Ed-Din) (every muslim faction can recruit this unique unit in Mecca (Kaaba) - replenishable everywhere from a Jama)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mongol Bodyguards (Mongols, Cumans)
I have changed them to heavy archer cavalry (low amount of arrows) with outstanding melee capabilities. Now they feel much more elite mongol and are to be feared.

Caliphate of Baghdad
I gave them two new units. The Mamluk Spearmen (castle) and the Mamluk Militia (city)

Other unit changes
Too many to list them all, I already forgot half of them, because I did them during testing. But everything should feel now much rounder and in some cases more distinct. (Egypt, Bagdad) (Novgorod, Rus) etc.

I still have some ideas for units (f.e. Eastern Ambush Archers (Cumans, Kwarzemimiii), but I have to look if I can possibly merge or delete something now. We will see.


Recruitment System

Like I wrote before in this thread, I made a new addition the the Byzantine unit recruitment, regarding their elites.
They must now hold certain cities to recruit certain units. They have the standard roster available everywhere.

Reciting from memory (I could be wrong with the cities)
Latinkon - You need Florence or Adrianople
Dismounted Latinkon - You need Thessalonica or Bologna
Latinkon Spearmen - You need Nicea or Chieti

Byzantine Infantry recruitable in every city - you need Constantinople or Rome
Byzantine Firethrowers - You need Constantinople (They can now be recruited in Constantinople and Rome as well, instead of only in castles.

Variodotai - I have not changed this yet. Still thinking about it, and keeping the Byzantine Archer Cav as standard

Athanatoi (Immortals)- You must hold Constantinople and have built the Blachernae Palace, so you can recruit them there and replenish them everywhere in your realm (huge city, citadel)
Scholae Palatinae - You must hold Rome so you can recruit them there and replenish them everywhere in your realm (huge city, citadel)

I think thats about it.
On a footnote I made the Rebuild Colosseum and the Palatin Palace (here you can recruit the Scholae Palatinae) buildable by the Byzantines in Rome. More reason to kick the man with the funny hat out of the eternal city. (Besides getting the Scholae Palatinae).


Refinement and Improvement to the Emerge script

what the title says. It now works much better as before.



Thats all folks
I keep you udated and delve now right into the Mongols test campaign.

Sneaky edit: I think about giving the unique units a unique banner

@atthias
I am happy too. Right now, it feels like everything comes finally together. I myself can't wait to release 3.0 into the wild.

@cokjan
My last two test campaigns where the Cumans and Kwarzemimeie. They where a lot of fun.
Don't hit yourself for that zealots idea, it could have worked. Everything is allright. Just don't think about the proposals to much, just keep them coming. I will just dismiss the ones that I don't like or don't work .