Once More with Feeling - The Road to 3.0

[Shogun]

I downloaded your mode and i can say very nice mod with interesting details and concept. But if i must say somehow incorrect from historical point of view.
If u want to have 3.0 as final mod version for your awesome work i think u should provide players better and more rival options on the map and
unit roster and new correct factions of year 1080. Biggest problem is that factions doesnt have real challenge between themselves cuz u made map quite big with some factions out placed. I think that North american or (USA) portion of map should be without Apache tribes they were simply not close to east coast not to mention that early settlers didnt contacted before 18 century.
Roanoke is truly off mystake cuz i had in 1084 event pop out that tells me about new world not to mention that between 1120-1130 tells me who lives there and i should go and conquer it.
this is truly wrong and u should stick to european theatre for until 1490 about discovering new world.
Also i would suggest u to not use units all over the place because some units in game actually not existed as those units by name or as military formations.
I will try to explain my opinion and suggest to u solutions that could improve gameplay of your mod and
to provide nice enjoy for players.

I will divide my suggestions in 5 types: Factions, units,territories(map), events, miscallenous stuff.

Playable factions in 1080 is rly hard to represent correctly on map cuz your map is bigger than vanila and it adds mongols which didnt exist as unified force back then. But nevertheless interesting approach u taken.
IMHO i think u should use vanila map and embed in it more factions and events (historical) to represent your final mod as 3.0 than to try to recreate mongols in 1080. Simply your map imho is biggest problem cuz factions can develop themselves quite strong as i did with hungary, hre, france, byzantine empire.
Now factions, fisrt of all i was suprise to see Novgorod, Damascus and Abbaside (Bagdad) caliphate in game. This is not even close to historical coorect.
Novgorod in 1080 was part of kievan rus and will stay part of kievan rus until mongols invade russian lands.
So here is first mistake, Orthodox nations in that time were only: Kievan rus , byzantine empire, kingdom of duklja (serbia) and armenian kingdom of cilicia.
Second problem is damascus i dont know why u put it as independent its very arguable it was ruled by seljuks turks dynasty of al khwarezim 1079 until 1104 when it will become ruled by burid dynasty.
this is very wrong to put it cuz seljuk turks had several dynasties by overall u could divided into two factions:
great western seljuks: turks (1037-1194)
and great eastern seljuks: khwarezim dynasties (1077-1231)
all other territoties were either part of turks or khwarezim dynasties. So damascus hardly can be independet when actually in real life was strugle between burid dynasties and rum dynasties of same people in this case turks.
Abbaside caliphate seize to exist around 1055 when their buyid dynasty was conquered by seljuks so abbaside caliphate didnt exist in year 1080 neither bagdad as independent realm.
they will emerge in egypt some 250 years later as mamluke caliphate.
Again imho this faction should be removed from mode.
Not to mention that in that time on Iberian peninsula u had 7 factions or 6 more accurate to be that were more independet than Damscus or Novgorod but u didnt represent them in game. HRE in your mode is quite underestimated which is very wrong (i presume your german cuz of HRE tag under your name) HRE was almost at its peak by that time controlling much of central europe and almost entire italy.
As u can see it very hard to represent factions of that period of time even thru enitre medieval time cuz realms were changing very fast.

Now to explain correlation between factions and gameplay and which is more important overall ambient of play. Main issues is that i have feeling fighting rebel all time which is little downside of mod cuz most of territories given to HRE were actually in RL part of HRE in that time. So this leads to not focusing to even attack other kingdoms cuz i have quite territories to take from rebels leads the gameplay from main narrative or close historical gameplay.

U also should redefine territories so they fit more accurate to the map cuz u have quite large areas on east where actually were there cities (i mean here for Khwarezim empire iran areas).(i can help u to clasify more correctly teritories for factions or give u many coat of arms of factions).

lets say we classify kingdoms into 3 categories:

cat 1 main factions that have impact thru entire or close to entire gameplay of vanila
cat 2 realms that have significant period of existence thru gameplay
cat 3 realms that doesnt have many years of existence due to be conquered or not fully impact on history timeline from vanila game.

My suggest list of playable factions for TV 3.0 should be:

North europe: 1. norway, 2. denmark
West europe: 3. england, 4. france, 5. scotland, 6. ireland, 7. wales, 8. hre, 9. papal states, 10. Apulia,calabria and sicily, 11. catille and leon, 12. aragon, 13. venice, 14. portugal (althou he is not independet in that time of period)
East and South europe: 15. Hungary, 16. poland, 17. byzantine empire, 18. duklja, 19. cumans, 20. lithuania, 21. kievan rus,
Asia: 22.Seljuk Turks, 23. Khwarizm empire, 24. Mongols, 25. Cilicia
Africa: 26. Almoravids, 27. Zirid emirate, 28. Fatimids
Non-playable: 29. Aztecs

Now this leaves 2 more factions to add u could went for croatia in balaksn but they will fall by 1102 under hungary and the are cat 3 in my clasification not rly impact on map. But u could add as emerging faction #30 Mali empire as counter to Almoravids from south or faction #31 Ghazavide Empire east of Khwarizem to counter mongols or #31 emerging Tamerlan (Timurids) or u can stay with 29 that i first propose.

lets say we classify kingdoms into 3 categories:

cat 1 main factions that have impact thru entire or close to entire gameplay of vanila
cat 2 realms that have significant period of existence thru gameplay
cat 3 realms that doesnt have many years of existence due to be conquered or not fully impact on history timeline from vanila game.

And btw CD version works fine and players should use TotalVanilla.bat file.

Tommorrow i will put suggestion on maps and about factions more in detail and i will try to make u Icon for mod tommorrow.

[4zumi]

Hey Shogun,

thanks and I see that you have quiet a big thought train going on here.
But allow me to slow this train down a little bit. Your suggested changes are something like a total conversion of my mod.
And I do not know, if you know how much work this would be. I developed this mod over the past two years,and everything you see has gone through many changes until it felt right to me.
Don't get me wrong, I always welcome suggestions, but I am not obliged to follow them

So to give you some answers to your suggestions.

0. A preface for historical accuracy
There is none to be found here
As I mentioned in all my release threads (I hope I did), that this mod is as bound to historical accuracy as every CA released vanilla game.
History provides a canvas for this game and mod and can and will never represent history correctly.
There where no units of knights, the whole organisation of the medieval state was different, characters did not live for double their lifetime, Milan was no treacherous bastard and the Pope did never send a crusade against Arhus... You get my point.
This game and mod provides a medieval feeling, with some history.

1. The Map & a Round World
The Map went through several redesigns until it is, what it is now. There is no way, I will go back to the original vanilla map.
Mapping is tedious work and this map is in line with the factions in this mod.
My Apacheans will stay, even if they are not historical accurate, but they are the closest I have to the Native Tribes of North America (And they have Thunderers)

Sticking with history, the Vikings discovered Vinland (North America) and tried to settle there, but gave up the settlements, but tried again.
Granted, the run for the new world began with Columbus.

I chose Roanoke as the settlement name, because I like the story behind it, and I am aware that this happend much, much later.

And I think the message you mention is the one you get when somebody contacted the Aztecs or Apacheans or crossed a line and discovered the continent. Perfectly normal, happens when an old world faction discoveres the newbies.
The World is Round event will happen on turn one.


Waiting for the World is round event was tedious. The Vikings managed to sail over there without "ocean faring" ships, so the others could do this possibly to. Making the Americas availabe from the start, was a "Fun" decision. Otherwise I could have left it out completely, because this late event was never more than a mild suprise at the end of a campaign. I wanted it to be an campaign essential. You chose where to go....

2. Ahistorical factions

Yes you are right. Not every faction was present, but they are not from my imagination. I have done quiet some research (not as extensive as for a thesis or something like that, but good enough to give the faction a grounding in history)

It is correct, that Baghdad was under Seljuk control, but the Abbasids remained strong there. This was the basis for my Caliphate of Baghdad Faction. As they managed later to rebell against the Seljuks, before they where crushed by the Mongols.


The Emirate of Damascus is based on the Zengid Sultanate. I could have called it Emirate of Aleppo, but Damascus sounded better to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nur_ad-Din_(died_1174)

The whole reason for the variation of muslim factions is, that they are so few and where no resistance in the original vanilla game. Now a Jihad is to be feared, and the Muslim Factions are no pushover thanks to the extensive backlands they have.

3. Iberian Peninsula

The cramped pot of wonders (the second one after the british islands)
If i could and would add any more factions to this, the factions would stand on their own toes.
"You have to look at the balance too" - This is the reason for the simplification of the Iberian Situation. This and the faction limit.

4. HRE and the Rebels
Yes times are changing fast. Kingdoms change faster.

Half the fun for me in the early game is, to carve out a kingdom by taking as many rebel settlements as I can. Sometimes I am fast, sometimes I am to late and Poland got Stettin before I could lay a hand on it.
This is like throwing a dice, every time a new game starts. It will never play out as before.
If I would remove most of the rebels and gave the regions to the right owners (making the HRE a big blob in the middle, etc), it would take the fun out for me and I think it would hurt the early game.
So yes, in the beginning you will fight mostly rebels, until the factions have settled down.

5. Novgorod
I like them, they are staying as a faction. And I think they deserve a spot as faction as the Repulic of Novgorod, because they weren't as attached to Kiev anymore later and became more or less independent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novgorod_Republic

6. Redefining Regions
Not going to happen in the radical way you want to. This mod is still focused on Europe, albeit with a greater emphasis on the east.
Redefining the regions and making more settlements in the east availabe, means losing regions in the west.
Small changes may going to happen, but nothing big.
Again, this is also part of the balance concern.

7. Factions
If I do not get struck by lightning or have an delirious epiphany while I ride the flu in bed, the factions will stay as they are, as I thinks they are now well balanced over the map.

8. The rest
Good to hear, that the CD version works fine

9. The rest rest
Please do not take it personally what I have written.
As I said above, I appreciate every constructive comment and suggestion. And I am open to ideas, so feel free to post them.
I don't know if you mod yourself, but I would suggest you should try making a mod by yourself, then you will see why I discarded those ideas.

10. PS
Thanks that you want to make an icon, but this is what I have planned as one of the finishing touches and want to do myself as a little closing ritual.

[Cokjan]

Wow, good luck with the traits and ancillaries! Robin hood as a retinue?

[4zumi]

Thanks cokjan,

I try to sprinkle some pop references here and there and keep it lighthearted.

And while we are at it. Here are the first examples for the crowns you can get in the game.
The crowns are available to every General that holds the (original) capital of another faction. (Only the capital gives the crown)
If England holds Paris, the Governor will get the Crown of France. If France already has the crown on a character as ancillary, the English will get a copy. Crowns and most titles will most likely be on a per faction basis, rather than on an only one in the world basis.

And I made a small trade called "Incoronation", if the Faction leader is within 1 square of the capital (the actual capital not the original one like London or Paris), he will get the trait Incoronated. Because he had now a fancy party with fancy hats and capes.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

That's awesome!

Though I'd probably change up the mottos between England and France, have France say "God and My Right" since "Let them Eat Cake" is a Republican lie during the Reign of Terror of the French Revolution, and have England says "God Save the King."

Also since we're on the subject of crowns, I think Spain's should be "To reign is bittersweet"

Portugal would be mi thinks "This is fortunate my beloved motherland"

Than the HRE "Gott mit Uns?" since that's a cool saying.

Also for a unit idea I wonder if it's possible to create a Polish elite cavalry unit for late game, like the Winged Hussars or Polish Hussars for Poland? Since the Polish Hussars began service in 1503, and I think the English Demi-Lancers would be a good candidate model or Spanish Conquistadors?

[Hellvard]

Polish hussars indeed started their service at the beggining of XVIth century, but not in the form you're thinking about In that time they were a light cavalry formation of hungarian origin. They've become a national heavy cavalry in XVIIth century, that's a little too late after medieval period I fear

[KasierStahl]

@Hellvard

Awh man . _.

I really wanted to play with units of winged hussars charging at kebabs formations ;/

[Hellvard]

Well, historical accuarycy is not a main subject of this mod, so you can ask Zumi what he's thinking about it

[KasierStahl]

@Hellvard

Maybe, but it might be too much so nah?

@4zumi

Also I wanted to make a little note I made of the game, I was playing as the Irish faction this week, and made a few rules for myself to remain neutral in the game and not take up any settlements outside of Ireland or wage wars of aggression or conquest only in case of self defense if invaded by Scotland or England, to remain ultra-isolationist, and on top of that this play through is on very hard.

132 turns into this game of neutrality and ultra isolationism, the Mongols have steamed rolled through Russia, Persia, Central Europe, taken the Levant and are invading Egypt and Northern France setting a siege to Flanders and have three full armies near London that England currently holds the British Isles and parts of France. When I toggle_fow, there is a whole Mongolian Rape Train of fully stacked armies spreading its tentacles into Southern Germany, Greece and Italy, and even venturing to western France and into Iberia. Even with a good majority of the Muslim lands under their belt, the Mongolians surprisingly haven't converted to Islam.

[4zumi]

@kasier
Thanks for the suggestions.

I could give "God and my right" to both France and England, as I have not found a better expression for France.
But I may go with "God save the king", not sure yet.

I have:

HRE "Translatio imperii, Restauratio imperii" - I will keep that.
Spain "Plus ultra" - I think I will stick with that, even if i like your expression very much. I may use it for a minor title.
Portugal "The other Spaniards" - This comes up, if I do not find something adequate. Now you gave me something and I will go with your phrase

I am afraid the winged hussars will not make an appearance, as they are too late, I have no model and the polish already have hussars.
But @Hellvard or kasier if you want to you can suggest me a better expression for the polish crown, since I found none and came up with that... "and then the winged hussars arrived"

@hellvard
Ask and you may receive an answer I am a generous god...

@kasier
The conversion of the mongols to islam is a game of chance. much like lithuania. They have chance of 1/3 to stay pagan and a chance of 2/3 to become muslim. So it has nothing to do with what they have conquered.

And I will shamelessly admit that I only play on normal/normal difficulty (relaxed after work play), so I have not seen the Mongol Train in such action.
I balance the game around the normal/normal difficulty. But the Mongol invasion might have a little bit to do with the obscene amount of money they get at a certain event

@all
Right now I am working in the minor titles like the Duke of Normandy, Emir of Al-Andalus, etc.
I think I will not make a title for every region that is found on the map, but stick to the large and important ones or the ones I like especially.

The crusader states have now their 4 titles, beginning with the King of Jerusalem (stay in the city, wait one turn, don't have already 8 ancillaries or a title (Crown))

The catholic factions have their crowns, muslims, pagans and orthodox factions still pending.

Old world nations will get governor titles, when taking land in America, Governor of the Carribbean, etc...

You will get a trait as christian or muslim if you capture or defend jerusalem, etc.

So much for now.

Edit:

Oh, and muslim princesses are off the table, because reasons...
I just thought and read about it and decided against it.

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

Make the Motto for the Crown of Poland be "If God is with us, then who is against us" even though that came from the Polish-Lithuanian Common Wealth Era of the Kingdoms history, still it's a good motto.

Also in regards to the new ancillaries can a singular leader like if he takes over the capital of a faction gain the crown of the faction? Like I'd seriously would love for a conquering monarchy to hold the crowns of France, England, Scotland, Denmark, Hungary so on and so forth. Be like a game of crown collecting really for me!

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

Also on the Mongolian question, don't tweak them as they are perfect in my view. In my main HRE late game play through the Mongolians are a very good enemy to contend with in the maintenance and preservation of the Empire and I love the challenge. That and when I played as Ireland I was thoroughly surprised and enjoying what I was seeing the Mongolians are capable of doing if I as a player don't do much in the game and leave the reigns of controlling an empire to another faction, specially it was a fun back and forth watching Spain and Portugal team up against the Moors only to fight against each other and then having Portugal as the sole uncontested ruler of Iberia. So on with every other faction that the current large empires are the Egyptians, Eastern Roman Empire, England, Milan, Norway and the Mongols.

[4zumi]

@kasier
thanks, i will take that motto for now

Yes, a family member (does not have to be the leader) can take the original capital and get's the crown of that faction if he does not have already 8 ancillaries. But this character can not get any more crowns by standing in another capital, you would have to manually give it to him from another character that got the crown (because he did not own a crown already.
In an ideal case this could lead to a character with 8 crowns as ancillaries. But I doubt this is possible due to other ancillaries clogging up the space.

[4zumi]

So,
here is a state of progress for the titles.
The green dots are crowns (major titles)
The pink dots are minor titles.

The work is half done yet.
(This map does not include other ancillaries (those will be expanded soon, but will not get an overview map.)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[4zumi]

Oh my, what have I started.
"The work is half done"

So many titles, I can't stop, every region a title,...
And the other stuff on top of that...
Oh my...

Edit: Europe is almost finished. Remains the rest. You get an Emir, you get an Emir, everybody gets an Emir....

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

I can't wait to play, want to play so badly now! @_@

I wonder on the crowns will you be using the actual picture of said crowns? Like I'd like to see the imperial crown of the HRE on the ancillaries thumbnail

Also on titles like King of France, will there be a Duke/Archduke of Normandy or Nottingham, Count of Holland, you could make the lower rank title of count for a few cities?

[4zumi]

If there is a fotograph of that crown, there will be an ancillary depicting this crown, otherwise it will be a random mostly matching crown if there is no picture. But yes, every crown will look different.

Now that I started, it seems, that almost all region will get a title (Duke of Normandy, Duke of Sutherland, Margrave of Brandenburg, Count of Whatever, King of soandso, Despote of Epirus, etc. This will be depicted also as an ancillary and is a minor title. I try to find an appropriate coat of arms for every minor title. If I do not find one in reasonable time, I will take the clostest one or make something up. (I think this will be mostly the case, the more I go east, because as far as I know Heraldry was not an extensive hobby in the east.

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

Awesome! Also in regards to the crowns and titles of Duke of Normandy and Count of Burgundy, will these titles make who ever holds those titles be able to extract more tax revenue in the region, like say Archduke of Vienna gets 10% on trade and 10% on tax whenever he's in the city?

[Hellvard]

Hey Zumi, I can give you a list and pictures of ancillaries for Polish regions if you can wait a few days, because I'm on little vacations right now

[wolf-yop]

I dont know how to tweak this but the most annoying thing in this game for me its the mountain battle maps that usually happen in high altitude type terrain, It happens the most in the turkish regions and it makes the battle really frustrating. I dont know if you can minimize this.

In other matters adding reallyBadAI can be good for battles but since its easy to install maybe its better to make it optional.