Once More with Feeling - The Road to 3.0

[BHL 20]

Why not call the Caliphate of Baghdad the Abbasid Caliphate instead?

[4zumi]

Because I want to keep out dynasty names
Thats the reason why the Damascenes are not called Zengids, Egypt not called the Fatimids, the Turks are not called the Seljuks, because they have Ottoman units...
etc.

Thats the whole reason. And when I play the whole what if thing, i could imagine that the Abbasids where maybe killed on by the Seljuks and someone else rose to Power in Baghdad that was not an Abbassid...
If I keep it this way, no dynasty will get in the way and the faction name is more of a universal description.

[Shogun]

maybe i skipped some screnshoots but few stuff:

province Pecheneg city Voronezh doesnt have access to sea of Azov.
province Volga Bulgaria no harbor/village acees to caspian sea
province georgia city tbilisi no acess either to caspian sea nor black sea. My proposal make Baku as Shirvan region rebel and make it as city port acess to caspian sea, and province gerogia city tbilisi acess port to black sea.

bravo for malta and mallorca they should be represent in game.

Latinkon Spearmen - You need Nicea or Chieti

much better chieti and athens cuz achaia was actually controlled by crusader remants after 1261 and liberation of constaninople from filthy heatens from west.


Scholae Palatinae is late roman republic unit mostly spread thru entire roman empire before 476 until maybe 800. Military reforms during early 11 century around (1010 AD) based new unit varangian guard which was protege by Basil I problem is that most of units later especially during high and late medieval era wasn't much different compared to western units in name and definitely there was not Scholae Palatinae in specific period.

Vizir of Jerusalem is title not unit formation nor knightly order units. Much better to give specific retinue such vizir of jerusalem.

province southern sicily city syracuse should be changed in province Catania city Catania port access near Syracuse.

What dimensions are for retinue traits and should be tga format right?

[4zumi]

@shogun

-thanks. you are right voronezh was missing a port. it has now one.
the two other provinces already have one.

-Following your argumentation i changed nicea to athens, makes sense

-I know that the scholae palatinae was a late roman unit. But I think you do not see the reasonsing behind making this unit. It is a bit like ressurecting the Rome Roman Empire. And I like the idea conquering Rome as the Byzantines and reestablishing a unit of Scholae for the old times sake.
As it is historical fiction (as well as nobody rebuilt the colosseum..., but in my mod, you can) and a lot of what if... They stay and they look cool.

-Vzir of Jerusalem is a title, yes... As is the Constabler of Jerusalem, and that is also a unit... (and it is a muslim unit, so no knightly order involved)

-Syracuse stays as it is. Catania was burned to the ground, rebuilt, etc... But thanks for the suggestion.

-What do you mean by retinue? The Ancillaries? Like the titles and such?

[4zumi]

@all

while starting my mongol test campaign I halted it very quickly because while playing I came up with a nice goodie system, that would be unique to the Mongols.
The taking of certain cities (following the real mongol conquest) gives a one time bonus in money and or troops.
It is a bit of a plundering and conscription simulator.

F.e. take Samarkand, gain 7,500 Florin and 2 Mongol Horse Archers,... take Baghdad and gain 20.000 Florin and a 10 Stack,... take Rome and receive 50.000 Florin...
Right now I am implementing this and will think on the fly for other uses of this system.

It works for player and AI alike. Could be fun against them

[Cokjan]

Well, what a lovely big update. I hope I can recruit hospitaller in malta and spank someone!
Also, the new unique units are magnificent. Playing as the byzantines will be so much fun, and taking mecca as muslim for the elites? I'm in.

That said, your screenshots of new units and their officers. Do you mean that the captain's model (like the ugly plate guy for europeans) are replaced, or it's an officer that will always attach to them? The models from kingdoms are really good.

[Cokjan]

Also on the mongol, I think it's just too big of a bonus. A florin gain from 1000-5000 would be better just to feed those units. And to gain more florins, you actually need to exterminate and destroy all the buildings from the settlement (at least that's how I roleplay as a viking raider lol). The unit conscription are interesting though, the mongols could really blitz! So in a way, it comes with a pro and cons.

I just can't imagine if I decided to play hotseat with my friend and he chose the mongols, it'd be fun but dayum he'll steamroll me

[KasierStahl]

@4zumi

I want to play so badly when will it drop please I must know! D;

[Cokjan]

^
This, man. A beta would be nice before releasing the full 3.0
Although it's better not to rush.


And, I even stopped playing the current total vanilla and just play retrofit just because I know there are going to be 3.0 around the corner (so many sweet changes and polishing).

[BHL 20]

Personally, I feel like a looting bonus just doubles up on an existing mechanic. Sacking or Exterminating already gives a decent cash payout (and it depends on city size) but both of these options come with the downside of damaging buildings and hurting the faction's reputation. A scripted looting bonus would be similar, I presume, except without any drawback.

I don't know about the beta other people are suggesting. Some mods fall into the trap of perpetually being stuck in a beta phase and there's never a full release.

[Shogun]

the two other provinces already have one.

So u added ports for volga-bulgaria and tbilisi cuz in 2.9 u dont have them. Very nice.

-I know that the scholae palatinae was a late roman unit. But I think you do not see the reasonsing behind making this unit. It is a bit like ressurecting the Rome Roman Empire. And I like the idea conquering Rome as the Byzantines and reestablishing a unit of Scholae for the old times sake.
As it is historical fiction (as well as nobody rebuilt the colosseum..., but in my mod, you can) and a lot of what if... They stay and they look cool.

They look good but could be better with XP sign cuz they actually wear that sign on shield. But IMHO they should not be there , nevertheless u decide it to be so its your mod.

-Vzir of Jerusalem is a title, yes... As is the Constabler of Jerusalem, and that is also a unit... (and it is a muslim unit, so no knightly order involved)

Thats why u should remove some units from templars/crusader roster cuz constables weere office titles not unit formation by making vizir of jerusalem unit it little destroys historical narrative. Much better to give them Retinues (Titles) thatn units and by doing that u boost generals thatn unit roster and u can add other units mor historical accurate than those.

-Syracuse stays as it is. Catania was burned to the ground, rebuilt, etc... But thanks for the suggestion.

Most important cities in Sicily were: Messina, Catania, Palermo. Most important house was Hautville and they originally ruled from Catania. Later they moved to Palermo were it will be established County of Sicily. Before that all Coat of Amrs were actually Norman aka Plantagenet with two lions. Region that they controlled were Apullia Robert Guiscard, duke of Apulia and Roger I Hautville count of Palermo.

-What do you mean by retinue? The Ancillaries? Like the titles and such?

Yes. Retinues are titles: should be divided as Royal, Ducal, Ecclesial, Lordship, Artistic, Economic, Scientific, Warrior, Office/Court and Industrious.


So example what im trying to do for few days as porposal to your mod rework is:

Faction: Lordship of Ireland
Starting Province: Leinster
City: Dublin
Title (Retinue) of faction (Lordship of Ireland): High King of all Ireland (+4 bonuses) +2 command +2 piety +2 authority +2 popularity

Title of Province (Leinster): King of Leinster (+3 bonuses) +1 piety +5% on all trade income +1 command

Title of City: Lord of Dublin (+2 bonuses) +5% tax income +1 law

Ducal Title: Irish Noble -2 loyalty +1 command +1 authority, Duke of (spefici region were was duchy +3 bonuses such as like Duke of Normandy +3 bonus for ducal titles +2 for lordships (city titles), taoseach +2 bonus (irish only), tanaiste (+2 bonus (irish only),

Ecclestial title: Cardinal of Ireland (+2 bonuses): +2 piety +2 authority u can add also +1 bonus titles such as Witchhunter, Inquistior, Acolyte, Cleric, Priest, Monk, Zealot (orthodox nations only), Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal (+2 bonus) although u could as i propose give this to generals not only to agents (romancatholic only), Patriarch (orthodox only)(+2 bonus), Grand Inqusitor (+2 bonus), Priest of pagans +2 bonus, Highpriest of pagans +3 bonus.

Lordship titles: Lordship of Connacht (+2 bonuses) or u can make it Tuam so u can distinct city from region and give connact Ducal refference Duke of/King of Connacth (+3 bonuses) same as for leinster.

Artistic titles: Poet, Singer, Painter, Sculptor, Writer, Musician (+1 bonus)

Economic titles: Trader, Merchant, Banker, Wealthy Baron or Patrician (+2 bonuse and on Wealty Baron +3 bonuses with -1 loyalty as one of the bonuses)

Scientific titles: Alchemist, Librarian, Scholaar, Invetor, Engineer (+2 bonuses) based on income and trade.

Warrior titles: Tactician +2 bonus, Strategist +2 bonus, Hero of battle +1 bonus , Hero of War +2 bonus, Conqueror +2 bonus, Crusader (now here there is several distinct sub titles such is (historical ones) Gascony templar/crusader, French templar/crusader, Flanders templar/crusader, English templar/crusader, Italian templar/crusader, Portugese templar/crusader) (+2 bonuses), Great Crusader (+3 bonuses), Famous Warrior +3 bonus, Siege expert +2 bonus, Infantry expert +1 bonus, Cavalry expert +1 bonus, Archer expert +1 bonus, Mercenary commander +2 bonus, Looter +1 bonus, Pillager +1 bonus, Marauder +2 bonus, Warlord +2 bonus, Mongolian Warlord +3 bonus, Defender of Christendom +3 bonus , Holy Warrior of Islam +3 bonus, Commodore, Admiral, Contra-admiral, Vice-admiral, Master of specific Order, Grandmaster of specific Order, Knight of Templar, Teutons, Saint James, Rhodes, Malta etc.,

Court titles:Treasurer +2 bonus, Military advisor +2 bonus, Master of Assasins, Spymaster, Almoner (church court chaplain for disturbution of money and help to poor ones), chamberlain, constable, Earl Marshall, chapelmaster (HRE only artistic title - music), Chaplain, Cup bearer, Conffesor (church person), Herald, Master of the Horse, The royal Fool, Great Officers (France only), Chancellor (HRE only), Steward, Grandmaster, Standard Bearer, Seneschal, Royal Secretary, Persuivant of arms, Falconer, Doorward (Scotland Only), Vizir (islamic factions only), Grand Vizir (turks only +3 bonuses),

Industrios titles: blacksmith +1 bonus, master blacksmith +2 bonus, farmer +1 bonus, tax farmer +2 bonus, shipbuilder +1 bonus, noble estate +3 bonus (need to be at least 1 negative), Mine owner +2 bonus, Quarry owner +2 bonus, Cloth producer +2 bonus,
Merchant mariner +2 bonus, River trader +2 bonus,

Ad few others i have on mind but atm this my clasification of tiles now opposite of them is those ancillaries such as moneylander, mad, etc.

[4zumi]

@cokjan

There will be no specific building for Hospitallers in Malta, but you can always wait for the guild to appear
The captain (the ugly one) is still there, the other beaty models are permanently attached as officers to that specific unit.
But now that you mentioned it, I might change the captain model as well I think I saw some nice models, but I would probably have to recreate all the faction skins, which I would do, if I make this change. I will have a look.

The Mongol mechanic is in the early stages of testing. So a lot can change and this is my starting point, I will see where it leads me. lowering boni or excluding cities, or scrapping the mechanic altogehter. Everything is possible. Thats what I am testing for.
So you could be right, that the florins are too much.

@kasier & cokjan
3.0 might be a while away, as I want to make it the final release. But I am on a good way. Could be a month or two. But don't take my word for it. Depends on time, problems, bugs, etc.
What I could imagine is a beta release here in the thread. So everyone could take a look and test it for himself. The mod is in a very playable state, it is just features, units, graphics, maps, that get switched around, get created, etc.
I have not encountered a CTD in my 26 test campaign, that could not be solved and the version is very, very, very stable.
So I will think about making a beta release for those who want to. But this will happen after I tested all 30 factions. Currently I am at 27 (and include now the big unplanned mongol feature.

@bhl20
Thanks for yout thoughts about this. I will most certainly take this into consideration. As I said above. The Mongol feature is in very early stages.

[4zumi]

@shogun

You can safely assume that I have a reason for (mostly) everything I put in this mod. Every city is researched, weighed and put in on a historical purpose, every new unit is put there because of gameplay reasons (mostly because of that), every (mostly) title (symbol and name) is researched (and be it just a 5 minute google search) and if I could not find anything I made something up, that sounds reasonable.

I can see that you have clearly put a lot of thought into the titles. But please hold your horses here. This is much more detailed as I ever want to make the title system. And multiple titles per region (exempt some regions) will get too much, in my opinion.
If you want to make it in such a detail, you are welcome to create a submod yourself.
I will not overhaul the ancillary system like this, as I am happy everything I put in works out and it does not crash the game, because of a mistake in spelling, like it happened with recruiting a priest in rome with the st. peters basilica present. (Took me very long to find this one)

You can find examples of the ancillaries TGA in the ancillaries folder in data/ui/ancillaries. Take this as a example.

[KmanBEAST]

I feel like a happy middle in this instance would be to just keep what is already being made by 4zumi. This is his own personal mod, after all (though suggestions can improve stuff and give ideas).

Mods that are super focused on a certain time period or REALLY focused on historical accuracy don't always do the best in being accessible to everyone. That's why mods like Stainless Steel and Retrofit/Custom Campaign Mod 2 are so popular. Those mods themselves are really just fixes of what everyone likes, with Stainless Steel obviously having a bit more flavor than the latter two. Most people who play Stainless Steel don't activate all the super-historical, hardcore AI, player handicap, or in-depth economy and character submods. That's why those are submods, and not added to the base game.

Same thing goes for this mod. I'd be happy to see the system explained by shogun into a submod for a mod, just not THIS mod specifically (sounds like something I'd like to see in Stainless Steel though).

[4zumi]

@kman

Thanks, could not have put it better

I like to keep it fairly simple for the player in TVB. No elaborate mechanics that require to study them in deep and the AI could not grasp it anyway.
And like I always say, ideas and suggestions are very welcome, but I don't have to adopt them.

And yes, this is not a super historical accurate mod, and I do not strive for it.

@all

That said I arrived at the final two of the per hand testing phase.
Mongols and Norway (as pagans ) are done.

I have tuned down the plunder boni a bit, and will leave them in. Now certain cities give that bonus and an event message, so you see how far the mongols have come (just like rumours from the east.) The Mongols now start with a single settlement.
They are now scripted to go to war with the Kwarzemimimi and the Cumans, regardles for a specific period of time. At the appropriate time, Genghis himself will spawn.

The Norwegians now, as mentioned earlier, are able to choose in a one time event at campaign start to go back to paganism. They get a new religious building, where Berserkers can be recruited. Also they gain the ability to recruit Viking Raiders in cities, but loose the ability to recruit Spear Milita in cities.
They also have a special event once they seized control over all of Britannia. I won't tell what, it is a small surprise.

And here are a few screens:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It seems like the whole of Europe starts to dislike you immensely once you go back to Thor...




All under the blue sky...

[4zumi]

another note:

I found a nice modell for replacing the plate clad northern captain.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think I will replace them for every northern european faction + hungary and poland

[4zumi]

And another one:

The Scots get a little special treat.
Their Captain model on the map and on the battlefield is now a certain individual:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[BHL 20]

They are now scripted to go to war with the Kwarzemimimi and the Cumans, regardles for a specific period of time. At the appropriate time, Genghis himself will spawn.

Cool

[crazyroman]

Lesser general/captain for the Byzantines will be the plate one or another model ? By the way i like so much the idea of these new captains !

[4zumi]

I included the byzantines to the change. Seems more fitting. So yes, the Byzantines get the Mailed Captain like the North European and Eastern European actions.