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Thread: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

  1. #1

    Default Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    This is just a game. Please no theological text, especially if it is something you have invented. While editing the text of some files, I came across a passage in the historic events file that I am not even going to copy here, exhorting Jesus Christ to help Christian soldiers slaughter their enemies. It was a long passage of this kind of stuff, which I consider extremely insulting to Christians, at least to Orthodox Christians but I should think to any Christian.

    Since the days of Constantine the Great there was a request from the fathers of the Church that a soldier who killed someone in battle should do at least a three year penance, that is become a monk for at least three years, serving the poor and the sick and so on, and that he shall not receive the holy communion for three years, which was practically equivalent to being condemned to hell, if he died in the course of those three years. At the very least quote a real historical text, if it is absolutely necessary to add stuff about Jesus Christ in the mod, but I really do not think that any kind of theology has a place in computer games.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    Dear Geoffrey,

    I do like very much all great mods for M2TW/K, including 1648, TATW, BC, SS, tLK, WotN, and have tested IBII and some others (still awaiting to try EBII, as EB was my favourite on RTW, I have high expectations...). But I agree with you, BC is really a potentially great mod, but there are a few bias that are at least disturbing, including the one you mentioned. My humble opinion is that a pure review of the game, disregarding ideologies/religions, would make it even better. On top of the theological aspects that, I totally agree, are irrelevant (or, to be more accurate, because religions had a very important impact on the societies of the Middle Ages, much more so than during the times BC and obviously after the 18th century in Western Europe, I think these aspects should be insluded in the game, but not with a bias). I also think that availability of units (i.e. number of available units) and some of their datas should be reassessed from a pure Real Recruitment-type point of view.

    Sorry for my English, and all the best,

    FFJean

  3. #3
    Morrowgan's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    The thing is that the mod is no longer being worked on.
    Member of the Beyond Skyrim Project

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    Too bad, as I think this is a very good basis, very exciting to play, although a better balance (RR/RC type) and as Geoffrey rightly indicated, a more neutral approach would be required!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    The mod is kind of worked on. From my point of view there is an issue with lots of older scripts and tools introduced by all kinds of important contributors such as GrandViz, Strelac and Byzantineboy having fallen by the wayside in the effort to complete the inclusion of all the new units and factions. Also the balancing is not perfect (certain factions such as KoJ, Armenia and the Ayyubids have always had issues) and there are then potential new scripts one may want to have as options such as those of Weekend General. In addition, some of the text needs re-editing, most stone forts have gone missing because of recent map re-editing, more historical buildings could be added, there are a lot of things to do but the modding community has shrunk and unfortunately all the original project leaders have left the development team. I am working on these things and I am hoping to release at least a submod that addresses some of these issues but it is time-consuming work and a one-man holy grail project. Ideally you would want the old developers come back and new people help along to make a concerted effort to produce a new version. Anyway, I should hopefully have some good news soon.

  6. #6
    isa0005's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    Is this "passage" you speak of even used in game?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    If I may, but this has nothing to do with the Bible, a quote like « kill them all, God will sort out His own » (crusade vs the Albigeois, Béziers, 1209) could be used.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    Quote Originally Posted by isa0005 View Post
    Is this "passage" you speak of even used in game?

    Yes, it is. I have removed it in my forthcoming submod and have edited all kinds of text mostly to sort out the paragraphs and so on but sometimes I get very tempted to remove other similar stuff.

    The fact that this game has nothing to do with the Bible or Koran or whatever, does not mean that one should say anything they like. I find some of this stuff somewhat offensive, even though it is well written and whoever did it had no purpose to offend anyone and was doing this out of sheer enthusiasm to create some kind of exciting start to a campaign. I just feel we should be more careful about what goes into the game that might offend people with religious feelings.


    Quote Originally Posted by FFJean View Post
    If I may, but this has nothing to do with the Bible, a quote like « kill them all, God will sort out His own » (crusade vs the Albigeois, Béziers, 1209) could be used.
    There is no need for any of this, just because a bishop somewhere may have said something along those lines. If he had written it all down, we could discuss it, if this was a Christianity forum but it is not, it is a gaming forum. Besides, that intro text was not for the KoJ but for one of the other Christian factions.
    Last edited by Geoffrey of Villehardouin; June 05, 2018 at 08:09 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey of Villehardouin View Post
    Yes, it is. I have removed it in my forthcoming submod and have edited all kinds of text mostly to sort out the paragraphs and so on but sometimes I get very tempted to remove other similar stuff.

    The fact that this game has nothing to do with the Bible or Koran or whatever, does not mean that one should say anything they like. I find some of this stuff somewhat offensive, even though it is well written and whoever did it had no purpose to offend anyone and was doing this out of sheer enthusiasm to create some kind of exciting start to a campaign.
    It's a bid difficult for others to judge when you haven't provided a direct quote of the passages.


    I just feel we should be more careful about what goes into the game that might offend people with religious feelings.
    I think that's an awful approach. You can't always not offend someone's religious feelings, because there will always be some morons whose religious feelings and doctrines make them try and curtail the freedom of others IRL. And that's putting it nicely - I think a cursory glance at the daily news (or any news from the past two millennia at least) should suffice to prove my point.
    What should be happening is, as pointed out above, a more fact-based approach to all aspects of the game, based on literature and archaeological evidence that lives up to modern academic standards. But that doesn't mean that actual verified quotes from Christian and Muslim (and other) scholars of the period, or even from scripture (in its chronologically appropriate form) shouldn't be part of the game, as things like that are important to the atmosphere - and also, most people back then considered religion a very important part of daily life.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    There was nothing historical or archaeological about that text. It was not a quote, it was just a made-up "prayer".
    Last edited by Geoffrey of Villehardouin; June 05, 2018 at 08:55 AM.

  11. #11
    KmanBEAST's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    I can understand both viewpoints here, and though personally this kind of talk in the Total War games has never bothered me, I feel like it would be the wiser move to just remove that kind of text from the game. There's having text in game about a crusade being called (like in the vanilla game), and then there's what Geoffrey described in the OP.

    As I said, I really don't personally care. It's just probably unsettling for some others, and I think that's the issue at hand. A mod shouldn't be shunned of all things because of some religious mumbojumbo.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    It's not just that. There is really no reason to invent "prayers" for the sake of a game. Here is a scholarly text about the view of Eastern Christians on killing Muslims:

    The whole idea of a “holy” war was an alien concept to the Byzantine mind. Killing, as Saint Basil of Caesarea had taught in the fourth century, was sometimes necessary but never praiseworthy, and certainly not grounds for remission of sins. The Eastern Church had held this line tenaciously throughout the centuries, even rejecting the great warrior-emperor Nicephorus Phocas’s attempt to have soldiers who died fighting Muslims declared martyrs. Wars could, of course, be just, but on the whole diplomacy was infinitely preferable. Above all, eastern clergy were not permitted to take up arms, and the strange sight of Norman clerics armed and even leading soldiers disconcerted the watching hosts.”

    ― Lars Brownworth, Lost to the West

  13. #13
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Pseudo-theological text has no place in Broken Crescent

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoffrey of Villehardouin View Post
    This is just a game. Please no theological text, especially if it is something you have invented. While editing the text of some files, I came across a passage in the historic events file that I am not even going to copy here, exhorting Jesus Christ to help Christian soldiers slaughter their enemies. It was a long passage of this kind of stuff, which I consider extremely insulting to Christians, at least to Orthodox Christians but I should think to any Christian.

    Since the days of Constantine the Great there was a request from the fathers of the Church that a soldier who killed someone in battle should do at least a three year penance, that is become a monk for at least three years, serving the poor and the sick and so on, and that he shall not receive the holy communion for three years, which was practically equivalent to being condemned to hell, if he died in the course of those three years. At the very least quote a real historical text, if it is absolutely necessary to add stuff about Jesus Christ in the mod, but I really do not think that any kind of theology has a place in computer games.
    What kind of Theological Text. Could you become more spesific please. I am interesting in such issues.
    In TGC (era before the Crusades) while Christians and Muslims had HUGE conflicts there was no "Holly War" atleast in the sense we give it after Crusades.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


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