Tactics vs Numidian cavalry??

[Davey]

I'm playing Carthage, and am in the early stages of an invasion of Numidia. The very first battle I get into(I didn't take the time to move a spy in for pre-scouting the army) I find out I'm facing nothing but Numidian cavalry. 600 of em! I don't know how many javelins that is total, but they sure as hell fired for a long time. I had zero horses of any kind,12 elephants,the rest infantry(1100 total).
To make it short...I had to lure them into the forest,and constantly try and surround them a group at a time. Then I would send infantry from at least 3 directions in on them. I guess they had trouble maneuvering in the trees,maybe couldn't throw their javelins as well either,not sure. Either way I won the battle but not before losing 800 out of 1100. I lost an an awful lot in the beginning out in the open.
My question is, had the trees not been available to me, I would have been decimated,it was going that badly at first. How can I counter that type of army with the type I had if it's totally in the open? They just run around on the outside tossing javelins and picking off everyone, and you can't get near em!
What kind of strategy could I use in an open field?

Any help appreciated!
Thanks

[Erwin Rommel]

simple carthage is the faction with some really dirt cheap cavalry, use it, start thapsus, churning long shields like there no next turn, plus numidia is spread widely along the coast so these army will move faster than infantry armues and be sure to have your noble men cause they hire mercenaries especially if you got to the sieging part were you have to need some infantry and your general can hire some mercs...............and elephant mercs

[Kara Kolyo]

slingers! they are cheap, have longer range and kill light cavalry like roaches. protect them with spears or your own cavalry and you are set

[Davey]

I appreciate your replies, but my question was "how do I counter them with the type of army that I had(which was zero horses) in the open?"

I only had a few slingers, but how do I protect them with my spearmen? If I put the spearmen up front,and the slingers in the rear, the cavalry will just pick off all the spearmen wouldn't they? And of course I can't attack the cavalry with the spearmen, because the cavalry just fling the javelins from a distance.

[Mithradates]

I appreciate your replies, but my question was "how do I counter them with the type of army that I had(which was zero horses) in the open?"

With HUGE casualties
Pure infantry can defeat missile-cavalry but just after that the cav run out of ammo and start engage to melee fighting, until then they will suffer from the missile-fire so you must outnumber the enemy cavalry and you CANT win without crippling your army.

I only had a few slingers, but how do I protect them with my spearmen? If I put the spearmen up front,and the slingers in the rear, the cavalry will just pick off all the spearmen wouldn't they? And of course I can't attack the cavalry with the spearmen, because the cavalry just fling the javelins from a distance.

Dont put the spearmen to the front because the slingers are firing very low and they could kill your own troops, put the slingers in 3 man deep lines to the front and the spears right behind them.
Slingers can kill the numidian cavalry fast, if the numidians charge you counter-charge them with the spears.

The best units against any kind of missile-cavalry are foot-archers or slingers.

[Dulce_et_Decorum_Est]

Realize that Numidian cavalry is as dangerous, if not more so, than Scythian horse archers. You're gonna get messed up fighting them without cavalry and not enough missile troops.

Three tactics occur to me:

1) Beef up your forces with lots of spearmen if you can't get cavalry. Spearmen do very well against missile cavalry... in auto resolve.

2) Arrange your forces in a circle and wait it out. You'll keep casualties and routing down if your troops don't get shot in the back. Eventually they'll have to charge, and then you have a chance.

3) Use your men as trees. Get them into loose formation and try to use superior numbers to eat the enemy cavalry like a micro-organism of some sort. It might work.

[Mrtickles]

I'm not sure if the range is quite right but if you set the Iberian infantry (as Carthage I'm guessing it's what you have) on fire at will their javelins may be able to counter Numidians if you can lure them in a few yards farther than the cavalry's maximum range. Try using a fast unit to bait them and having Iberians ready to fire. Trees and loose formation cut down on missle casualties too I believe. Otherwise next time try to have archers/slingers.

[Scutarii]

I'm not sure if the range is quite right but if you set the Iberian infantry (as Carthage I'm guessing it's what you have) on fire at will their javelins may be able to counter Numidians if you can lure them in a few yards farther than the cavalry's maximum range. Try using a fast unit to bait them and having Iberians ready to fire. Trees and loose formation cut down on missle casualties too I believe. Otherwise next time try to have archers/slingers.

Iberian Infantry don't throw javelins.

[ged_was_here91]

The best units against any kind of missile-cavalry are foot-archers or slingers.

Very Very VERY true Mith. I play Parthia in campaign, and you practically HAVE to tech to Cataphracts if you want to beat foot archers. They just destroy cav-archers. That said, cav archers tend to try and separate the army. If you want to beat them, keep your army in a cohesive formation and dont let yourself be broken up. As Carthage, grab some Numidian Merc Cavalry (javelins) and return fire!

[Severous]

Hi Davey

I have a tremendous respect for those jav cavalry. They will cause javlin casualties to most armies. They seem very deadly against Equites when they charge.

In the situation you faced I would
- Set all troops up hidden in the forest.
- Only your general (elephant?) would be visible to the enemy
- Set general behind other hidden troops.
- Numidian cav approach close to hidden troops. Maybe close enough to charge them
- If not open up with slingers who are furthest forward and in open formation on fringe of forest
- Slingers have to absordb cav fire
- Counter charge with infantry and elephants if cav melee attack slingers.

Cavalry are at a combat disadvatage in forests. Best fight them there..like you did.

[Mrtickles]

Agh true I forgot Iberians don't have javelins my mistake. I dunno I must have gotten Scutarii and Iberians mixed up they look similar enough.

[Roy Batty]

Send out your worst infantry ahead and to the flanks of the main body of your army and put them into loose formation. This will let them soak up as many javelins as possible before they break and run. Hopefully the enemy will run out of javelins before this happens. Turning a unit so that they face incoming missle fire or so that their shield faces missle fire will also reduce their casualties.

This is at best a wasteful tactic. You're going to lose men prolificly and needlessly, so recruit some cavalry and/or missle units as soon as you can and try not to leave home without them again.

[Vir Egregius]

My question is, had the trees not been available to me, I would have been decimated,it was going that badly at first. How can I counter that type of army with the type I had if it's totally in the open? They just run around on the outside tossing javelins and picking off everyone, and you can't get near em!
What kind of strategy could I use in an open field?

Any help appreciated!
Thanks

- your troops must compliment the situation ; range < speed
- fight defensively
- take the higher ground
- never pursue


when all fails
change a shirt, grab a beer try again

[starXdiaMoo]

I think the best way to counter them is to train a few weak units to use as bait in loose formation (peasants, skirmishers) so that the enemy fires all their javelins on you. It would be reasonable to have an able general so that your weak units don't rout easilly. When you see the Numidians have no more javelins, you can send your better troops forward to face off the helpless Numidians!

[Texray1]

But pretty much in responce to your question about fighting that battle in the open: you're gonna get creamed. If you manage to win it will be because you might have really experienced troops and theirs might be newbs.

[Draugdur]

my question was "how do I counter them with the type of army that I had(which was zero horses) in the open?"

You don't Sometimes you have to lose a battle to win a war (damn, this sounds cheap ) But seriously, this stuff that AI did to you is the exact strategy I used when I played with Numidians. Only... jav. cavalry costs much, both to recruit and to keep. And Numidian cities aren't exactly the richest in the world. My point is: had the Carthage in my abovementioned campaign taken only one of my cities, I'd been screwed. Heck, even if they manadeg to maintain status quo for, say, 10-15 turns I'd still be screwed...financially, I mean. So, the best thing you can do is to simply reduce your casualties (mentioned cheap-unit-in-loose-formation tactics should do the job) and overwhelm them with your troops. I don't think they'd be able to withstand a total war for long.

Alternatively, you could use foot archers/slingers. They're cheap, so you can recruit about 3-4 units for the cost of one numidian cavalry, and they do well against missile cavalry (especially javelin - range!); heck, I've tested slingers vs. sarmatian hypotoxotai (cav. archers in RTR) and they did the job, so there's no reason they wouldn't do it for you.

[HemilcoBarca]

The Numidian Cavalrymen were unparalleled, even against other Cavalry Units.

[UhOhIt'sAnArrow]

If all else fails, avoid them entirely. Send spies ahead of your armies and go straight for setlements. Then when they're rebels, gather up an army and do auto-resolve so you don't have to deal with it. Or if you want to deal with it better grab yourself some slingers and ranged cavalry of your own

[Macan]

If you have any cheap units send one in lose formation or in testudo if possible in front and put the rest of your army as far as you can if possible hide them all let the Numidians attack the lone unit and waste their javelins if they all get killed then send another until there out of javelins then expose your army but keep them tight together so they don't seem to numerous if they attack they will fight in close combat VICTORY!!!!!!!

[dre123]

best way to kill them is with archers and slingers