what factions in Warhammer 3?

[Dumanthis]

There is a whole new genre of speculating what TW:Warhammer III will introduce . But for the map I am too afraid to expect they will make it any bigger than it has already been revealed in the present Mortal Empires map, meaning that they only add the areas of the darklands (the area north of Dragon isles etc. and east to the worlds edge mountains.

[Steph]

If they only add the part we see in ME, hs it goes as far as the Gnoblar and that's it, it means only Chaos Dwarves.... no Ogres, not much more space for Chaos... Not enough to justify Game 3 as a full game, but just a DLC similar to TK.

CA has to make something bigger if they want to sell it as a full game

[Dumanthis]

I think there will be a separate campaign in Vortex campaign style but the mortal empires map will probably be like I stated before. The other thing is however, what kind of the map the separate campaign will be? The factions would have to fit the mortal empires map so I think it would just be an extended map of darklands and probably chaos wastes. PS. I am not saying that I would not love to have bigger mortal empires map etc. CA did amazing and suprisingly wonderous job with Mortal Empires and Vortex so maybe they do with Warhammer III. But the mortal empires map at the moment would not support this as it is now.

[lolIsuck]

The current Mortal Empires map is due a redesign. Like I said before much of the Old World could do with a revision but most of all the current state of Lustria, the Southlands and Naggaroth is a source of frustration for players and IIRC CA themselves have said they aren't very happy with it but had little choice as they ran into some limits with the map. At least the map expansion that came with the last DLC makes it highly unlikely that space to the east is all that is going to be added for WH3's big map as some people speculated. It'd be extremely meagre and would only allow the Darklands with perhaps a sliver of the Mountains of Mourn and some more Chaos Wastes.

[Steph]

... the mortal empires map will probably be like I stated before... The factions would have to fit the mortal empires map

That would not be a smart move from CA, it would be very difficult to sell it as a new game. They would be flammed, "it's just a DLC material".

To sell that as a new game, then need a new map, an even larger mega campaign map, and at least 4 new races. Anything less, and people will compare Game 1, Game 2 and Game 3, and be upset that Game 3 brings less than Game 1 and 2 for the same price.

[lolIsuck]

I decided to update the rest of the Old World as well, World's Edge Mountains are really empty but there just doesn't appear to be anything there. Don't really feel like adding Norsca (I have no experience with Norsca and the region seems alright) and the template doesn't really give much support for the Badlands so I haven't done anything there either. The only thing I'd probably add there would be Mourkain and the Marshes of Madness anyway.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Daruwind]

We got another article - this time about Kislev
https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-2/

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Old World: Ice Guard of Kislev




One of the coolest aspects of returning to the world-that-was is the opportunity to revisit certain aspects of its classic lore and delve into them in greater detail than ever before. A perfect candidate for further investigation is the harsh, frozen realm found to the north of the Empire – Kislev, the land of the Ice Queens. To that end, let’s take a look at a project that’s currently in development…


Putting the Class into Classic

The people of Kislev were renowned as being among the finest horsemasters in the world – and for giving a frosty reception to Norscan raiders and the hordes of Chaos who frequently invaded their land. They also had two iconic cavalry units in their Ungol Horse Archers and Kislevite Winged Lancers. Do you remember these miniatures from many years past? They’re so old, we reckon they were around during the last Ice Age…
Ungol Horse Archers Kislevite Winged Lancers

One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade. But where they differ significantly from the other Kislevite units we’ve seen in the past is that they’re able to channel the elemental magic of their realm in a similar manner to their Ice Queen – the most powerful practitioner of this unique form of sorcery. Here are some awesome pieces of concept art for the Ice Guard, courtesy of Forge World’s Mark Bedford.




Cool, huh?
Judging by the enchanted ice that wreaths their blades and arrow tips, we reckon they’ll make for some cold-hearted killers on the battlefield…
The Old World is still a long way off, but it certainly makes you wonder what else Kislev might have in store. In any case, if you’d like to learn more about Kislevite culture, be sure to read the Black Library Hall of Famer Riders of the Dead by Dan Abnett. Graeme McNeill’s With Ice and Sword and David Guymer’s Gotrek and Felix novel Kinslayer are also fascinating reads, revealing the fate of Kislev during the apocalyptic End Times.

let’s take a look at a project that’s currently in development…

Now the good question is, is CA cooperating with GW to utilize this in future? (wh3). This is exactly the how i can imagine Araby, Kislev, Ind, Cathay might get in. We are all expecting GW to flesh out firstly the old major powers. Empire, HE, Greenskins...but if they manage at the same time expand those minor ones....Kislev has potential for 2 LL ala Norsca size faction, so DLC probably. With this treatment, expecially if CA gets notes, hints from GW...Kislev can be 4 LL, Cathay might be in for ride, Araby might get overhaul down the line...so possibly be DLC. Not in current state but who knows how GW will tweak it in next few years, i can easily imagine it then to be perfectly viable for DLC...

EDIT: Youtubers already got up videos as well

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

North Dwarfs, eastern nations like Cathay

[lolIsuck]

Now the good question is, is CA cooperating with GW to utilize this in future? (wh3). This is exactly the how i can imagine Araby, Kislev, Ind, Cathay might get in. We are all expecting GW to flesh out firstly the old major powers. Empire, HE, Greenskins...but if they manage at the same time expand those minor ones....Kislev has potential for 2 LL ala Norsca size faction, so DLC probably. With this treatment, expecially if CA gets notes, hints from GW...Kislev can be 4 LL, Cathay might be in for ride, Araby might get overhaul down the line...so possibly be DLC. Not in current state but who knows how GW will tweak it in next few years, i can easily imagine it then to be perfectly viable for DLC...

Kislev can be a starting race, both previous games started with 2 lords each with more added by DLC's. If they rework the map and/or add the Wheatlands to the Darklands (seems sensible as it adds some diversity and lack of bleakness to the Darklands) there should be enough space for 4 lords. They could always put one further east, trying to find their old homeland or whatever. I do agree that this news is pretty exciting and perhaps does open the door to other factions a bit more although I do still think they are unlikely to happen.

[Abdülmecid I]

In my opinion, Kislev is definitely the strongest candidate for pre-order incentive. It has always been quite popular among Warhammer fans and is located in an ideal position between the maps of the first and last game of the trilogy. An order faction will also appease those who will be disappointed with the inevitable release of the 4 chaos gods as the initial factions in Warhammer III. Not that they will need much to be convinced after the first marketing trailers pop up and the social media hype has been solidly generated, but Kislev will guarantee that Warhammer III will be at least as commercially successful as its two predecessors.

[lolIsuck]

In my opinion, Kislev is definitely the strongest candidate for pre-order incentive. It has always been quite popular among Warhammer fans and is located in an ideal position between the maps of the first and last game of the trilogy. An order faction will also appease those who will be disappointed with the inevitable release of the 4 chaos gods as the initial factions in Warhammer III. Not that they will need much to be convinced after the first marketing trailers pop up and the social media hype has been solidly generated, but Kislev will guarantee that Warhammer III will be at least as commercially successful as its two predecessors.

I'd put the odds of the initial WH3 release being the 4 Chaos Gods far lower than the odds of Cathay making it into the game. It doesn't appeal to anyone but hardcore Chaos fanboys, they'd receive a backlash from making 2 of the 3 remaining major races DLC and they'd either need to make a map of the Chaos Realm itself or most of the map will be filled with non-playable placeholder factions. A pre-order Kislev isn't going to make me buy a 60 euro game with factions I'm not interested in.

[Abdülmecid I]

I'm not sure about that. Warhammer fans don't strike me as particularly demanding in quality and quantity of content, with how they constantly beg for more DLC packs in reddit. I think the issue is as polarising for the community as the controversy surrounding the depiction of Hellenistic Egypt in Rome II, meaning that beyond some hardcore fans, nobody really cares, as long as military rosters appear colourful, diverse and generally extravagant. Someone in the official forums mentioned the same argument, which he tried to support by setting up a poll, but the results contradicted his expectations. The absolute majority wouldn't hesitate to pre-order Warhammer III, even if it initially featured only the 4 Chaos gods. Granted, that poll probably does not portray a representative sample, but I'd imagine the percentages would be even more in favour of the majority among more casual customers, which have already been hyped by the marketing campaign and the pre-order incentive.

Spending a larger than anticipated amount of resources, in order to introduce three new factions, just to satisfy a small minority, would probably look counter-productive, from a business practice perspective. Nothing even close to that scale has happened before and given how complacent the social media mob is, I doubt that's going to change in the future. After all, they received quite a backlash for locking Warriors of Chaos behind paywall, blood packs and ditching naval battles every time with a different excuse, but did these clearly hostile policies affect their sales? Probably not. Actually, reddit reached such levels of white-knight behaviour that it even created its own factually wrong theories to justify the omission of maritime warfare and gore from the original product. That's why I remain very skeptical about CA's motivation to invest substantially more into publishing a more complete and polished game.

[Steph]

I doubt they have the 4 chaos gods at release. That would undermine DLC possibility for them.

I think we'll get a common chaos base, with 2 playable gods, in the form of 2 LL, each dedicated to a specific god, and with a few units specific to this god.

And then later they'll make one or two DLC, adding a new LL, specific to a new god, with additional specific units. and possibly reskin based units to fit this god theme.

[Daruwind]

Well we will see in time how starter races for Wh3 will look like in the end..... but let me remind us:

Wh1 - 4 races, 2 order vs 2 evil, Empire+Dwarfs humanlike, pre-order WoC so another evil..
Wh2 - 4 races, 1 good, 1 kinda good/neutral, 2 evil, humanlike HE, pre-order Norsca so another evil..

Between that DLCs
Wh1 - 1 good, 1 neutral, 1 evil
Wh2 - 1 evil, 1 neutral

See the patter? All those races/factions from core games got at least one or more DLCs, FLCs, always the campaign is set up like conflict and good vs evil is the easiest narrative. Especially Vortex...Plus CA said it themselves - humanlike good factions are the most popular. Empire, HE... So while 4 Chaos Gods are easier to make, definitely it won´t happen due to all marketing stuff, statistics etc stuff and mostly for being just to caretake to just one particular group of people. Plus they try to flesh out those starter races across multiple DLC. We are probably going to get one more DLC with Skavens - Moulder clan and people already talking skavens getting more than others....How would CA manage to publish 4+ DLCs for Chaos. Laziness or not, they won´t do this...

In meantime:

Kislev - half implemented. Already on Wh1/ME map. Easily done as pre-order or DLC
Southern Realms - half implemented. Already on Wh1/ME map. Easily large enough to feature 4 LLs. Additionally Dogs of War...but look at Nakai. Easily his style of faction.

Both those are nice good,human like faction

Chaos Dwarfs - evil
Ogres - neutral
4 chaos gods - evil

Why not split them into 2 core ones and two DLCs? But we had such discussion many times already. Ogres are unique, Chaos Dwarfs too. My version would be easily Kisled preorder, then TEB, Chaos Dwarfs (because they are after all dwarfs with Hellcannon stuff ) and two Chaos gods. Khorne is easy...no crazy magic. Slaneesh or Tzeench can easily fight with him....Nurgle is DLC stuff from my point of view.

But more importantly, this GW article, their have 0 reasons to show this now. Well they could show us anything else. But I think the year+ gap in TW:Wh3 production is maybe just maybe because GW themselves started to think about this return to World that was. Let´s say GW saw success of TW:Wh1/2, they got idea about returning to Fantasy alongside the AoS. But their side of project is for 3+ years. Knowing corporation, this idea had to running around for at least year before they actually said it publicly. But they would definitely tell CA ahead. And i bet my hat, CA was eager to talk about that. All CA needs is rough picture what GW has in mind, a few new units, characters, lore changes.....Why is GW talking about Kislev, now? I could be really Empire, Dwarfs..anything but they chose to say us about older/minor factions. It is almost like puzzle. I bet CA asked GW, if they could firstly talk about races/factions they are still ahead for Wh3.

CA won´t return to old Araby, Cathay, Ind, Nippon. But let me ask us question. A few months agon nobody would bet on GW returning to Old World. They did.

One of the coolest aspects of returning to the world-that-was is the opportunity to revisit certain aspects of its classic lore and delve into them in greater detail than ever before. A perfect candidate for further investigation is the harsh, frozen realm found to the north of the Empire – Kislev, the land of the Ice Queens.

revisiting Kislev, why not "New" Araby? GW a few times in history rewrote lore,details. This is best opportunity to deal with it once more. Hung, Kurgans...why can get more "Mongols" way. Halflings, Amazons, Albion are still probably minority things but Cathay, Ind, Nippon. This is great opportunity to visit those finally. I don´t know guys what we will get but once again why CA cannot surprise us once more......

[lolIsuck]

I finished the map:

Spoiler for Open in new tab to zoom: 

I decided to include the East as well because I might as well. I still think it's unlikely we'll see it in WH3 but it adds some more variety and if people don't like it just ignore that part of the map. Just the Darklands, Mountains of Mourn and the Chaos Wastes would probably be awfully depressing (at least for me) though. Making the map took a while because the areas with little info just took a lot of energy out of me. That wasn't just limited to the eastern factions but the Darklands and the Southlands as well. The maps I found for both areas were incredible scarse with names, the best map I found for the Darklands hasn't even got enough names on it for all the region capitals. For naming the east I mostly used the fan project maps as well as some other fanmade or perhaps very old maps I found here so don't mistake them for official names. I came up with a few names myself but I wasn't really feeling like making up a ton of edgy stuff for the eastern steppes/chaos wastes or other completely new stuff for the Southlands/Kuresh et al.

I also decided to make Araby and the Eastern realms as their own races/factions for variety's sake. As I said I still think they're unlikely to feature, just call it the wish being the father to the thought.

[Daruwind]

Wow. That´s really great map! I love how there is south pole at least with one region - Gates of Calith. I would love exactly those outskirts and distant land for small colonies. (Historically I love Empire and ability to settle Carribean, Sri Lanka and fighting ovre those remote trading theatres) And honestly counting and looking at number or regions in various parts (Ind, Nippon, Cathay...) it feels pretty good and organic. Not too much, not just a few. Just enough.

But just a one note. Turtle Islands? Judging from lower pictures 3rd+4th, and Wh2 Vortex depiction, I would add little more mass.

And second idea, looking at Eastern Steppes Hungs,Kurgans....Honestly If we would get such extensive map, I would imagine easily we well get at least one those steppe tribe as mongol/norsca/WoC mash up faction...just to have somebody up there except Chaos. Or they would end up as Norscan tribes in Norsca DLC...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[lolIsuck]

Wow. That´s really great map! I love how there is south pole at least with one region - Gates of Calith. I would love exactly those outskirts and distant land for small colonies. (Historically I love Empire and ability to settle Carribean, Sri Lanka and fighting ovre those remote trading theatres) And honestly counting and looking at number or regions in various parts (Ind, Nippon, Cathay...) it feels pretty good and organic. Not too much, not just a few. Just enough.

But just a one note. Turtle Islands? Judging from lower pictures 3rd+4th, and Wh2 Vortex depiction, I would add little more mass.

And second idea, looking at Eastern Steppes Hungs,Kurgans....Honestly If we would get such extensive map, I would imagine easily we well get at least one those steppe tribe as mongol/norsca/WoC mash up faction...just to have somebody up there except Chaos. Or they would end up as Norscan tribes in Norsca DLC...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yeah, was just thinking of adding Santa Magritta as well. It's the Estalian colony in Lustria on the island north of the Temple of Tlencan. Probably to replace Xocibiki as that was just a name I used to get another island settlement (and is technically not on the right island) but I could also split that province into a 2 settlement island province and the 3 settlement Scorpion Coast province with Santa Magritta added. As for the Turtle Islands I used the Warhammer 8th edition Lustria map as outline:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I agree with you, which is also why I named all three in the legend. I merely didn't split them up in 3 colours as I was somewhat running out of easily distinguishable ones (which were also somewhat fitting). I hope the Hung and Kurgan, as well as the Hobgoblins, get at the very least their own subfaction like the Savage Orcs.

[Steph]

This map is really really nice

[Daruwind]

I was recently thinking about various scenarios

1) Old russian dataleak was kinda right
In this scenarion 4 core factions are 4 Chaos Gods, Chaos Dwarfs + Ogre Kingdoms are DLCs, pre-order Kislev

So in such scenario, central mechanism,conflict will be probably in first part to unit/conquer all others Chaos Gods and then probably what? Some end stuff? Chaos invasion? But who is usually opponet of such move? Good factions like HE/Empire..Lizardmen,Dwarfs. But those are already protagonist of their own two games. Still I can imagine one scenario. What if Empire gets Middenheim as new boost and Kislev is really speedbump? Look down at middle picture and notice one thing. It is hardly centered around Darklands....We would be again fighting over Empire,Kislev....

+core factions have strong central conflict - great game, DLC factions can have separate stuff aka Vampire Coast
+easy to make, cheap
-weak in marketing, players prefer good + humanlike factions.....HE/Empire

result: for me unlikely scenario especially due to the last point. This was probably old plan when even game one was far from finished state....and in case that this would be current plan, why the hell so slow production on game 3? this would be easy to make

2) what if we will focus on pre-order in ralation to already released maps.
..So what if Wh3 pre-order is active not just in Wh2 but even in Wh1. If we omit sub-factions (Neferata, Middenheim, Norse Dwarfs...) and if we expect Wh3 main campaign around Darklands....Kislev and Southern Realms are already in Wh1.

Kislev is fine in Wh1, no land in Vortex, fine in ME and is having enough content for 2 LL ala Norsca faction. Especially with latest GW preview
TEB is also fine in Wh1, has some colonies in Vortex and also fine in ME, enough content for 4 LL especially if we consider Horde style subfactions / Mercenary system for Dogs of War

but what if we focus just on Wh2...Vortex/ME

Both upper choices plus technically Araby has fine land presence in both maps, probably enough for 2 LL but i think according to CA comments, chance for "old" Araby is zero. Only technical way in may be in case GW gives Araby facelift as Kislev is getting. (This is easy way for GW to get rid of problematic stuff, thus old stuff leaving out, while getting in "new" Araby which would be ok )

Amazons, Halflings, Albion -> At best RoR part of DoW

result: Looking down on all maps, I would pick Kislev. Especially with latest GW hinted rework. It is right size, right spot to be nuisance for Chaos and mostly, it is based closest to expected land mass of Wh3.

3) What if we focus on Wh3 Main Campaign mechanics.
..So something ala Vortex, binding 4 factions together. Naturally Great game for 4 Chaos gods, but that is still booooring way. This is also reason why I don´t think one Chaos god will be pre-order. If it would be active in Wh2 or even Wh1, why not add other 3 factions later in...Unless this time pre-order for Wh3 is active just in Wh3.

So we have Chaos. Kislev warring for world mechanics? Nah...they are local power fighting with every Chaos incursion but imagine them leading conquering war into Darklands. Similar thing with TEB. They are warring with themselves, at best they are mercenaries. Which is kinds similar to Ogres. But Ogre Kingdoms can easily by tied in by Great Maw. Which according to AoS "was aspect of Gork and Mork"...So either that or even keep Great Maw as separate entity so some rites or whatever for world dominance for Maw. Chaos Dwarfs and dark meddlings, possibly world dominace? Why not. Sign them in. Plus they have Hashut as diety. So we have 4 Chaos gods, Great Maw and Hashut which is nice framework. But I´m lacking good faction to fight for similar world dominance or trying to stop them. Imagine HE/Lizardmen vs DE/Skaven and vying for control of Vortex.

Kislev as pre-order can just stand in the way. TEB/DoW while good are as well just trying to defend. Just mercenaries fighting for money, Norsca at least has the hunt mechanics, TK wants to rebuild themselves....Araby as well would be just about existing, they are not vying for world control....

Let´s pretend Cathay will get Kislev treatment. (Ind,Nippon) They could be the good faction fighting to stabilize Great Maw or stop Chaos. Because Cathay could be in theory linked to Maw ( https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Great_Maw )

But there are definitely others that would fit well in such world-end catastrophic narrative. Thanquol and Great Hornet Rat..Nagash and his way to make everything undead, being his own god in his own terms...

4)leftovers
What about clan Moulder? Would fit in Wh2 as well..
What about Middenheim and Ulrik Cult?

....

So if I put all those pieces together I have two notes
1) I´m missing good faction with world goals. Aka HE/Lizardmen. Who is supposed to go toe to toe with Great Game? Not saying Kislev is bad, but Kislev is usually speedbump for any serious chaos incursion. TEB/DoW are mercenaries, at least Middenheim sounds like guys ready to defend Empire/Humanity. And Cathay needs Kislev treatment and lot work to be viable...
2)So many dark/evil factions with godlike figures, narrative......4 Chaos Gods, Hashut, Great Hornet Rat, Nagash and Great Maw.. Let´s say you are playing one Chaos faction. How would your TODO list looks like? 1) other three (i mean unite others under yours command obviously) 2) conquer world ...actually insert 2a) Conquer Great Maw for great power? What if new Vortex is vying for control of Great Maw and awaken it for whatever faction has plans to do next?

Because what else could Chaos try to do? Usual stuff is 1) unite somehow for time being 2)usually ram anything in way into Empire....Because usually Everchosen heads into Empire ( https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Everchosen ) There is not single instance when he has crusaded into Darklands, Mountain of Mourn...And that is the problem. We know Chaos gods are in and even if Ogres have disconnected mechanics for Great Maw, even if Chaos Dwarfs have disconnected mechanics about whatever dark scheme..who would compete with Chaos gods in core game,core mechnics? Kislev? Middenheim? TEB or Cathay?

I don´t know, but somehow I think Great Maw might be big unifying thing. It has potential to be exactly crosssection for all various factions we are expecting (Chaos, Ogres, Dwarfs) plus Thanquol/Great Hornet Rat even Nagash or even Cathay could be tied in....Just imagine it as new Vortex.

Because Wh3 main campaign has to have reason why all the Wh3 core factions are fighting over. Why not include HE/Empire/Lizardmen if it is actually some world crusade? Because we are probably missing all usual good protagonists here...What possible narrative can be there to tie in all Wh3 expected factions around Darklands...That´s my main point. Control/unleashing of Great Maw might be such stuff...



See the last map? This could be way how to get there Middenheim, TEB/DoW, Kislev, even Cathay. Vortex is as well not in centre of gravity instead is protected by one faction - HE.

-----
So to summarize things.
- Kislev as pre-order in case even for Wh2, one chaos god in case just for Wh3, but seriously then Kislev would be just DLC..not core faction? O.o
- we are getting something along lines 1-2 x chaos gods, Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs and we need one Good factions and while TEB/DoW are easier to make, Cathay has sadly potential to vie for control of main objectives.. TEB/DoW are more likely neutral in such case :/
-I honestly bet on Thanquol/Nagash entry into great game

EDIT: I did some changes to 1) point and plus got one more idea. Next GW rework/hint might tell us more. Actually I can imagine CA keeping Cathay behind curtains as they did with Skavens. But we cannot prove it. But if GW hints Ind/Nippon...that would be strong suggestiong Cathay is firmly in. And unless we got rework for Araby, they are out. And possible Great Hornet Rat/Nagash hint would maybe push those into Wh3 firmly as well...Because what if we get Nagash as main faction. He is certainly in power game to rival Chaos Gods. And every TW Wh needs some good skelly boys and vampires

[Steph]

It's an interesting discussion, but it maybe too much of a copy/paste of the Vortex.

I think we could see more faction specific goal. After all, in Vortex, the VC or TK don't care much about the Vortex.

For example Cathay main goal could be to defend the Great Bastion against Chaos invasion.

[Daruwind]

Totally agree it is somehow copy/paste Vortex. But while for each faction controling/unlocking Maw might have different reason and goals, execution might be actually similar across board.

Hashut, Great Hornet Rat, Nagash want to ascend up. Become true gods. While Chaos just want it for whatever end stuff plan they have. And Ogres/Maw just want to eat everything around to get more powerful.

It is just one option still like only one if we are keeping core Wh3 game narrative around Darklands. Crusade to get Polar Gates? Who would lead it in first place? HE/Empire, simply which faction we expect to see in game 3 would attack Chaos Realm and why....Chaos Incursion is usually into Kislev/Empire direction..Great Maw is simple goal to keep factions warring around Darklands.