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Thread: Battles

  1. #1

    Default Battles

    There's a little snippet of information from Jack Lusted about battles in the official forums https://forums.totalwar.com/discussi...-and-mechanics

    A few key points:

    Shield Walls and Shield Castles are in.

    Formations are tighter than what we've seen in the released images and videos, and Shield Wall will apparently be default for appropriate infantry.

    Cavalry react to infantry in stationary formation differently to anything we've seen in TW before when they charge head on (I love this bit and can't wait to see the animations).

    They're aiming for 12-15 minute battles between full stacks.

    Holy hell the news from this Saga just keeps getting better.

  2. #2
    King Athelstan's Avatar The Wheel Weaves
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    Default Re: Battles

    I'd prefer 15-20 minute battles between full stacks, but this looks promising. I'm also excited to see how the Shield Caste will perform
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Battles

    Good news indeed because this collision in trailer looks awful

    https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads...ubyq6bveiz.gif

    Sorry, that .gif is too big (28mb) to embed. The limit is 5mb. ~ Frunk
    Last edited by Frunk; February 06, 2018 at 07:24 PM. Reason: .gif embedding removed.
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  4. #4
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fanest View Post
    Good news indeed because this collision in trailer looks awful

    https://us.v-cdn.net/5022456/uploads...ubyq6bveiz.gif
    Wow that unit charged through fifteen or so lines of men. They're either going for Lord of the Ring's charge of the Rohirrim, or thats a massive bug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theramines View Post
    Shield Walls and Shield Castles are in.
    I'm obviously just guessing, but Shield Castle might just be an immobile version of shield wall, and look like this:
    Last edited by Commissar Caligula_; February 07, 2018 at 07:06 PM.



  5. #5

    Default Re: Battles

    Another comment by Jack. This time specifically about the horrible collision in the preview build:

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussi...omment_2064997

    Well the gif there is probably the worst case scenario of shield wall v shield wall, 2 light spear units running at each other at full speed and both charging in to each other. Since the preview build the spacing of soldiers has been reduced and their collision radius increased so that scenario will result in more of a solid hit, but in situations like the above some soldiers running through lines is still possible.

    The focus of battles is all on positioning and where you attack. As units with their default shield wall behaviour are so common, and clashes between those kind of units can be quite slow, you need to flank and try and break morale as best you can whilst the two main lines fight it out. It gives you that feeling that battles of the time should.

    You can try and break the line by flanking with cavalry or infantry, or if you've got units with it use Wedge formation to try and punch through, or maybe you'll move missile units to the flanks and wear the enemy down with that. Battles are not just click and attack, and the depth of tactics needed is what you'd expect from a Total War game. It doesn't need a click on/off shield wall formation to do any of this.

  6. #6
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by zoner16 View Post
    Another comment by Jack. This time specifically about the horrible collision in the preview build:

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussi...omment_2064997
    or if you've got units with it use Wedge formation to try and punch through
    Wedge formation actually giving extra collision damage and being important to breaking through a shield wall sounds good. I don't think Wedge actually does much in the other games.



  7. #7
    NorseThing's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Battles

    I know this information is evolving day by day. I love it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Battles

    Since the preview build the spacing of soldiers has been reduced and their collision radius increased so that scenario will result in more of a solid hit, but in situations like the above some soldiers running through lines is still possible.
    So once again, Attila engine shows itself to be at depicting unit collision as always, not that I am surprised since that has always been how it is. Hope since it is supposed to be on an old ass engine like that it appears no where on the new 3K game but based on the possibility it will might still be using the same engine from Empire I would still be worried.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Battles

    Yeah, nothing earth-shattering but good news all round.

    The best bit so far has been battle duration lengthened to 12-15 minutes, though as others have said, for full stacks it would be even better if this was 15-20.

  10. #10
    Anna_Gein's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Battles

    It is disappointing but expected.

    As far as I am concerned battles are a critical part of this game value. As the campaign has a limited scale with a limited variety of factions I expected more work to be done in the battle gameplay and an accurate representation of Anglo-Saxon/Viking warfare.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Anna_Gein View Post
    It is disappointing but expected.

    As far as I am concerned battles are a critical part of this game value. As the campaign has a limited scale with a limited variety of factions I expected more work to be done in the battle gameplay and an accurate representation of Anglo-Saxon/Viking warfare.
    I agree but I feel as though it will be more or less identical to Attila. I was hoping to see the combat slowed a bit and a lot more weight and impact (proper mass).
    Time will tell though, I sure as hell won't be getting this right when it comes out, want to see how it plays\looks before purchasing.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Battles

    If its based off the Attila engine, I don't expect it to be pretty. There's too much that that engine is just not capable of when doing melee animations and combat visuals.

    I just want it to play well. Which, Attila is decent at, so I'm hopeful.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Battles

    Well the gif there is probably the worst case scenario of shield wall v shield wall, 2 light spear units running at each other at full speed and both charging in to each other. Since the preview build the spacing of soldiers has been reduced and their collision radius increased so that scenario will result in more of a solid hit, but in situations like the above some soldiers running through lines is still possible.

    The focus of battles is all on positioning and where you attack. As units with their default shield wall behaviour are so common, and clashes between those kind of units can be quite slow, you need to flank and try and break morale as best you can whilst the two main lines fight it out. It gives you that feeling that battles of the time should.

    You can try and break the line by flanking with cavalry or infantry, or if you've got units with it use Wedge formation to try and punch through, or maybe you'll move missile units to the flanks and wear the enemy down with that. Battles are not just click and attack, and the depth of tactics needed is what you'd expect from a Total War game. It doesn't need a click on/off shield wall formation to do any of this.
    I've heard this crap before. The battles are gonna be a mess, becuse the ai is retarded and the engine dosen't handle collisions very well.

    I like some of the new features and I will problaby buy it, but on sale in a few years.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Battles

    I don't mind some errant behaviour of single or few soldiers. I can also live with blobs to a certain degree. My main concern is the "flanking" thing. It sounds good and flanking was one of the best real life achievements, but flanking on actual battlefields was a lot less easy-peasy than on our TW battlefields.

    So it comes down to how well the AI can deal with our flanking. I would opt for cunning positioning and units movement to counter player moves instead of coding flank effects out of kv_rules, as it seems to be in some newer TW games.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Battles

    The most recent video by Pixellated Apollo of a massive siege assault looks pretty good. A few small things look like they need work, but overall things seem to be improving in steps.

    I don't like the archers and skirmishers firing into melees but primarily hitting enemy units, as that is completely unrealistic and an AI cheat. My ranged units often can't do it for some reason, but the AI's always can. Also, warning, you can't unsee my next point:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I think the walls and siege tower models are massively over-sized. The men look like knee-high miniatures next to them.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Battles

    The latest developments in battles. What's new in Battles?

    I like it a lot. You can see the new cavalry "charge reflect" animation in there. One or two concerns that cavalry move unnaturally fast, and a hint that "charge reflect" might have to be triggered by clicking a "braced" button, rather than just being automatic for stationary infantry. I dislike micro-management button clicking.

    Some of those settlement battle maps look amazing.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Battles

    One of the developments in the new battles that I've not noticed a lot of people talking about: town battles that are open enough to maneuver in! I'll be honest: after awhile in Attila I just stopped fighting town battles altogether because I couldn't squeeze more than one or two units into the cramped conditions and every fight became a mess. Warhammer just did away with them altogether which caused some controversy (and I totally understand the problems there too) so this solution seems like a really good compromise.

    Like others here: I'm a little worried that my hot shield-wall on shield-wall action won't last as long as I want it to...but we will just have to see what happens in that regard. At this point, after seeing everything here and on other sites, I'm quite optimistic about what we will get.

    And if not: there are always mods! ;-)

  18. #18

    Default Re: Battles

    As long as they continue using the Warcrap engine, melee combat will continue to disappoint. Everything they are talking about doing, such as increasing unit radius to facilitate improved collisions, is a band aid that does not address underlying issues, such as units having no effective mass, and all combats being 1v1 only. I mean come on, they have had them since Empire and STILL they exist - because there IS no fix.

    I might add that even vanilla M2TW did not have any of these problems and that things like unit radius and combat animations were easily configurable by the user. Frankly they would have been better off just using that battle engine, which is quite a sophisticated and deep piece of software, updated it to support multiple cores, and pasted improved graphics over the top.

    Before Empire came out I was asked by CA to be a beta tester, but turned it down due to lack of time - I wish I hadn't.
    Last edited by Point Blank; May 01, 2018 at 06:30 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Point Blank View Post
    As long as they continue using the Warcrap engine, melee combat will continue to disappoint. Everything they are talking about doing, such as increasing unit radius to facilitate improved collisions, is a band aid that does not address underlying issues, such as units having no effective mass, and all combats being 1v1 only. I mean come on, they have had them since Empire and STILL they exist - because there IS no fix.

    I might add that even vanilla M2TW did not have any of these problems and that things like unit radius and combat animations were easily configurable by the user. Frankly they would have been better off just using that battle engine, which is quite a sophisticated and deep piece of software, updated it to support multiple cores, and pasted improved graphics over the top.

    Before Empire came out I was asked by CA to be a beta tester, but turned it down due to lack of time - I wish I hadn't.
    From what I understand of TW engine 3, combat is not actually 1v1. Just the animations only support 1v1, so that's what things look like. It's a problem, but less of one.

    Medieval II's engine was very nicely configurable, but calling it "sophisticated and deep" is stretching it. A lot of it is really hacked together and several systems seem to work only by the capricious hand of fate. Making that thing properly multi-core would require burning it down and rebuilding it. Medieval II is a great game because the designers were able to stretch it to its absolute limit and keep focus on the things that the system did well while covering up its weak points.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Battles

    True enough I guess, but with today’s hardware the speed is not really an issue. I am not really up on the internal mechanics of Warscape, but I still think maybe they would have been better-off extending the M2TW engine. Oh well, events will proceed from this reality, not some wished-for past And CA is clearly heavily invested in Warscape for whatever reason; hopefully they do have something else on the drawing board though.

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